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WW2

 
 
Yoyoma
 
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 11:43 am
WW2
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 5,814 • Replies: 53
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 11:59 am
Yoyoma, Google is a good place to research your topic, but there is no substitute for reading; however, if you have procrastinated, that's too bad. Good luck!

Welcome to A2K
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 12:01 pm
Well Google isn't totally useless. It led you here and probably because of this Discussion on the Allied Bombing of Germany.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 12:03 pm
Way to go, Google!
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Jim
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 12:03 pm
A few random thoughts here.

German war production peaked in the second half of 1944 - of course production would have been higher than it was if there had been no bombing.

The naval blockade, which greatly reduced imports of raw materials, should not be ignored. This is one of the main reasons the Germans were unable to take greater advantage of jet engines in aircraft - since they were unable to procure the proper metals to alloy turbine blades in sufficient amounts, the engines they did manufacture were limited to around ten hours of running time (the turbine drivers we currently have at work run 25,000 hours between overhauls).

There's an interesting book about German-Japanese trade of critical war materials by submarine and surface blockade runners: "Reluctant Allies, German-Japanese Naval Relations in World War II" by Krug, Hirama, Sander-Nagashima and Niestle, that you might find interesting.

Hope this helps.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 12:13 pm
A few good ideas for you . . . one is Decision Over Schweinfurt, which is a policy study of the United States Army Air Force in England in the development of it's bombing strategy. Don't have a more complete citation for you, but you should be able to google it. CdK has pointed you to a long discussion we've had here of this topic. Basically, Churchill and "Bomber" Harris (Arthur Harris and Sons, House Removers) decided that area bombing at night would be effective on the principle that factory workers who don't sleep don't work efficiently. My personal take is that this was a very transparent fig leaf to cover their desire for revenge, to "get" the Hun for bombing London and Sheffield. In that regard, Churchill's The Second World War can give you some insight into what ol' Winnie claimed was their policy and how it was arrived at.

More significant would be to google Albert Speer. The American doctrine was, basically, daylight precision bombing. After their first raid on Schweinfurt (the ball- and roller-bearing center in Germany), the USAAF decided it had been a failure. Their standard was 10% of bombs within 1000 yards of ground zero. In fact, they did a lot better than that, but their damage assessment tools at that time were very unreliable. But Albert Speer, and architect who had become Hitler's manager of war production, estimated that that single raid had knocked out 65% of Germany's ball- and roller-bearing production for three months. This was critical. German fighter aircraft, tanks, submarines, etc., were all "over-built," in that they relied upon a high degree of technical sophistication and exacting machine tool products to produce superior weapons systems. This made German war production very vulnerable. The Germans produced fewer than 3,000 Tiger tanks. The Germans in Normandy had a saying: "A Tiger can take out 10 Sherman tanks--the Amis (Americans) always have at least 11." We produced on the order of 50,000 Sherman tanks during that war. When Goering was being interrogated after the war, and was asked when he knew the war was lost, he is reputed to have said: "When i saw the first Mustang over Berlin." The famous American test pilot, Chuck Yaeger was a fighter pilot over Germany. I heard him in an interview once, saying that: "What the Spitfire could do for 40 minutes, the Mustang could do for eight hours." Escorted daylight bombing missions over Germany and Austria spelled disaster for German industry. For a view from the other side, find The First and the Last, which is the war time autobiography of Adolf Galland, who was the head of the Luftwaffe's fighter arm.

Lots of good resources out there, Boss, which you should be able to find through any good library.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 12:40 pm
Well, the Portal on this site (look under "History") might give some links as well.

H-net German: World War II bombing: rethinking German experiences is another possibilty.

Even you don't understand German, there are a lot of interesting pics at The Battle of the Ruhr

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7708&highlight=mohne+dam =" 'Dam Busters' - 60 years ago, the Möhne Dam was bombed" shows a lot of more private rubbish talk, but has some probably interesting news as well :wink:
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Yoyoma
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 12:41 pm
Thanks
Okay - thanks for the info. I'm just wondering which orginizations/people/events I should be focusing on - my research question relates to "Morality." - very specifically. Oh - and don'y worry the essay is due a long ways off, few months away, I just want to do a lot of research Smile .

I really appreciate any starting information on what arguments I should be making and things I should be researching.

Thanks for your time
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 01:00 pm
As mentioned above, you may find it useful to review remarks in the various relevant threads here at A2k.

Setanta's remarks should be carefully noted because he is one of our very best historians.

This is an extended quote from A Guide to the study and Use of Military History, an annotated publication of the Center of Military History of the US Army, and one of the best guides I know of in this field.

You are referred to ... " The volumes in the official Air Force history, Wesley Frank Craven and James Lea Cate's[eds] The Army Air Forces in World War II, that deal with the war against Germany are in Vol 1; Plans and Early Operations (January 1939 to August 1942) (1948), Vol. II; Europe: Torch to Pointblank (August 1942 to December 1943) (149) Vol. III; Europe: Arguement to V-E Day (January 1944 to May 1945) (1951). Also of particular interest is the multivolume series prepared by the U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey that examined the effectiveness of air operations in Europe and Asia, published (1945-1947) by the Government Printing Office. A feel for what it was like to participate in the air war in Europe may be gleaned from an account by a former B-17 pilot; Bert Stiles's serenade to the Big Bird (1952)."

The theoretical foundations of strategic bombing are found in the work of the Italian proponent of airpower, Giulio Douhet. Douhet's most influential work was probably The Command of the Air (1921). This book was published in English by Coward-McCann, 1942. This is one of the essential books in the study of military theory and history, though to today's reader it seems almost naive in light of the carnage inflicted in wars fought since its publication.

That should get you started. When you get your paper completed, please post it for us to read. I'm interested to see what you've learned.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 01:03 pm
The bombing campaign was at least nominally a joint responsibility of the U.S. and British air staffs. Bomber Harris will probably be an important British commander for you to research.

The British favored carpet bombing at night, and the Americans focused on precision daylight bombing. The difference of opinion was never resolved during the war, though some of the materials mentioned above did publish conclusions after the war.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 04:18 pm
The Rommel Papers
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 04:58 pm
Probably the most concise treatment of WWII airial warfare is the unfortunately currently out-of-print

Airwar[/b]: Jablonski, J, Doubleday 1971, ISBN: 038514279X

Any major library should have it or be able to locate it within their system of affilliates. I'm sure used copies can be found on the web. About 700 pages in two volumes, it is a US-oriented survey, but authoritative and well written. The extensive bibliography provides a considerable pool of relevant sources for further research. Over the past 30 years or so, just about every scholarly book on the subject has cited or referred to Airwar
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 05:15 pm
Even though out of print, that should be available at any good university library.

Another search for you: "Ploesti in World War II" --google that, it should be helpful in constructing your thesis about the effect of the airwar on Germany. Ploesti, in Romania, was a petroleum refinery center. A huge air raid was mounted from North Africa to destroy the refineries at Ploesti. The aircraft were, if my memory serves, primarily B-24's--good range and a large bomb load, but very little armor compared to the B-17. American casualties were horrible. German casualties were high. And, a great many Romanians who had bought into the specious racist hatred of the Germans, believed that America was owned by the Jews, and that they would never allow anything to happen to "their property." Many Romanians headed for the Standard Oil refineries, convinced the Americans would not bomb them. What a terrible price to pay for naively believing someone else's hateful propaganda.

In a related note, you might research the development of synthetic fuels and lubricants in a petroleum-starved Germany.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 06:43 pm
Another valuable reference, probably only available through a major library, is

Strategic Bombing in World War II: A Study of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey: MacIsaac, D, Garland Publishing Co., 1976

I'd recommend the United States Strategic Bombing Survey: US Government Prining Office, 1946-1949

itself, but its hundreds of volumes. Probably available digitally or on microfiche through major university libraries, the edition held by The Library of Congress occupies approximately 1000 cubic feet of shelfspace, or about the volume of a modest house.
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Yoyoma
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 07:54 pm
WW2
WW2
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Dec, 2003 08:31 pm
You should have no trouble writing 5000 words on even one of those ideas. The amount of information available is so large that you probably couldn't even read a portion of it working fulltime for the next five years.

Setanta alluded to an important point above that is often overlooked. People tend to think of "strategic" bombing as being directed only at cities and war production facilities. The effectiveness of attacks on those strategic targets during WWII varied widely. Distance, defense, tonnage and accuracy were all factors in the equation. The American dependance on precision bombing at that time was probably not justified, especially when the targets were at extreme range and were heavily defended. As German defenses crumbled and the Mustang came to dominate the air, effectiveness did increase. Carpet bombing at night was terribly destructive and must have had some effect on distrupting the German economy. The German populace was just as determined to resist as the British were during the Blitz. Speer relocated many of his strategic factories into underground to better protect them.

The Allies shifted their use of airpower to a different and much more fragile strategic targeting scheme, the Transportation system. Disruption of the transportation system was probably more effective than the targeting of ball-bearing factories, and petroleum refineries. Roads, railroads, canals and shipping are much more vulnerable. They are difficult to defend, especially if you lose air superiority. Targeting the transportation system didn't require the mass raids used previously against fixed targets, but could be torn up by fighter aircraft. strafing, and low-level light bomb loads could stop the shipment of essential supplies in any of a hundred different places.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 01:37 am
Asherman wrote:
The Allies shifted their use of airpower to a different and much more fragile strategic targeting scheme, the Transportation system. Disruption of the transportation system was probably more effective than the targeting of ball-bearing factories, and petroleum refineries. Roads, railroads, canals and shipping are much more vulnerable.



Have of my family was killed by bombs, when the British missed a (small) shipping channel and the related mine works by miles: only the town was destroyed.

375 refugees [in a red-cross marked train] and inhabitants died in my native town, when the station was bombed - instead of the 25 miles away railway junction (thus, however, the medieval town of Soest didn't get totally damaged).
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 02:30 am
The conception of a "total war" i.e. both by the attrition of the civilian population and by the destruction of military and economic structures, led in 1943 to the execution of a combined British-American air offensive. The aim was the unconditional surrender of Germany, by the complete destruction of German cities in the hail of bombs prepared by the autumn 1944 up to the spring 1945.

Modell of the inner city of Münster, administrative center of Westphalia, spring 1945
http://www.muenster.de/stadt/museum/modelle/stadtmodelle/1945/bilder_1_2/innen_06.jpg


(This model was created after British and American photos and is to be seen in the town museum Münster [online: http://www.muenster.de/stadt/museum/modelle/stadtmodelle/1945/1945_0.html ] The exhibitions there offers as well [copied] documents, which prove that monasteries, churches, hospitals and other civilian objects were choosen as targets.)
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Yoyoma
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 10:23 am
One more point
Do you think I could argue that allied strategic bombing was effective as it helped 'soften' up Germany for specific ground invasions? I guess I could mention important ones.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Dec, 2003 10:48 am
Yoyoma, that angle might be appropriate in the case of the Normandy invasion, but, there was little strategic help the air forces could render once the armies were in France, and racing for the border. By the time Courtney Hodges's First Army crossed the Rhine at Remagen, and Montgomery launched his disasterous "Market Garden" operation, the weather had predictably deteriorated to the point that most targets were "socked-in" and unavailable. The greatest effect, as Asherman points out, was the destruction of the transport system.

Pay attention to Walter's comments and links, as your theme will be the effect on Germany, he can give you the most help on the German perspective.

By the by, i forgot to mention, i am very impressed with your virtuosity on the cello . . .
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