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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:45 pm
Bernard Lewis is a hack. He has, in the past ten years or so, developed a reputation not dissimilar to that of the sort of embarrasing uncle who shows up at family gaterhings and farts at the dinner table, then laughs.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:48 pm
ican711nm wrote:
MacNamara if correctly quoted is wrong again. Crying or Very sad Bush did not act unilaterally. Bush acted without the support of three countries proven to have had vested interests in keeping Hussein in power despite his continuing murder of thousands of Iraqies. Those three countries are well known to the US public now: France, Germany, and Russia. Russia and France are both capable of vetoing UN support for anything they do not support. Absence of their support is not proof of the absence of multilateralism.


I always wonder, why all the other countries, which didn't support Bush, are obviously forgotten.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:52 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Bernard Lewis is a hack.


Laughing

Your broadway humor is enjoyable but not informative.

Even more enjoyable is your presumption of an ability to accurately assess the competence of any one, including yourself.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:53 pm
Yeah,
the US acted in coordination with the vigilante posse it put together, those nations that wanted in on the action, those that wanted a piece of Iraqi ass.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 03:56 pm
It seems our ass is being kicked pretty bad; only 635 Americans dead - so far. "Bring em on!"
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:01 pm
Some reviews of Lewis:
Review of Bernard Lewis' "What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response"
Quote:
Review of Bernard Lewis' "What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response"
Juan Cole, Global Dialogue, 27 January 2003

Bernard Lewis. What Went Wrong: Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response. New York: Oxford University Press, 2002. 172 pp. Index to p. 180. Hard covers, $23.

Bernard Lewis's What Went Wrong? is a very bad book from a usually very good author. How a profoundly learned and highly respected historian, whose career spans some sixty years, could produce such a hodgepodge of muddled thinking, inaccurate assertions and one-sided punditry is a profound mystery. While I cannot hope to resolve the puzzle, I can explain why I come to this conclusion.

Lewis never defines his terms, and he paints with a brush so broad that he may as well have brought a broom to the easel. He begins by speaking of the "Islamic world," and of "what went wrong" with it. He contrasts this culture region to "the West," and implies that things went right with the latter. But what does he mean by the "Islamic world?" He seldom speaks of the Muslims of the Indian subcontinent, who form a very substantial proportion of the whole. Malaysia and Indonesia are never instanced. He seems to mean "the Muslim Middle East," but if so he would have been better advised to say so. With regard to the Middle East, what does he mean by the question "what went wrong?" Does he mean to ask about economic underdevelopment? About lack of democracy? About a failure to contribute to scientific and technological advances? About ethnocentrism? All of these themes are mentioned in passing, but none is formulated as a research design. If "what went wrong" was mainly economic, political and scientific, then why pose the question with regard to a religious category? Lewis straightforwardly says that Islam in and of itself cannot be blamed for what went wrong (whatever that was). Since Islam is not the independent variable in his explanation, why make "the Islamic world" the unit of analysis? Discerning exactly what Lewis is attempting to explain, and what he thinks the variables are that might explain it, is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.

Lewis has a tendency to lump things under a broad rubric together that are actually diverse and perhaps not much related to one another. Speaking of classical "Islam," presumably about 632-1258, Lewis says that the "armies" of "Islam" "at the very same time, were invading Europe and Africa, India and China" (p. 6). Here he makes it sound as though "Islam" was a single unit with a unified military. Later, (p. 12) he actually speaks of the Crusaders' successes impressing "Muslim war departments," as if medieval institutions were so reified. In fact, Moroccan Berbers fighting in Spain are highly unlikely even to have known about the Turkic raids down into India. Nor is it clear that those Turks were motivated primarily by Islam (pastoralists have been invading India from Central Asia for millennia). Moreover, tribal alliances across religious boundaries bring into question the firmness of the military boundaries suggested by speaking of "Islam." Even the early Ottoman conquests in Anatolia were accomplished in part through alliances with Christians. Finally, much of the advance of Islam occurred quite peacefully, through Sufi missionary work for example.



Serge Schmemann, in a review in the NY Times, writes that Lewis's latest book on the Muslim world is a disappointment, too filled with generalizations and unsubstantiated speculations (such as the theory that the absence of polyphonic music--music made up of multiple voices--in the Muslim world is related to its inability to modernize).
Quote:

Lewis' early work is masterful. His recent work is less useful. When ideology overtakes scholarship (like has happened with Huntington) then the result is useless.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:05 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I always wonder, why all the other countries, which didn't support Bush, are obviously forgotten.


First, "all the other countries, which didn't support Bush", are NOT obviously forgotten.

Second, all the countries that do support Bush are not forgotten either. Thus, Bush acted multilaterally.

It is clear that some are confused about the meaning of multilateralism.

www.m-w.com :
Quote:
Main Entry: mul·ti·lat·er·al
Pronunciation: "m&l-ti-'la-t(&-)r&l, -"tI-
Function: adjective
1 : having many sides
2 : involving or participated in by more than two nations or parties <multilateral agreements>
- mul·ti·lat·er·al·ism /-'la-t(&-)r&-"li-z&m/ noun
- mul·ti·lat·er·al·ist /-list/ noun
- mul·ti·lat·er·al·ly adverb
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:06 pm
One thing is for damn sure; Lewis has great imagination. Wink
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:12 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I always wonder, why all the other countries, which didn't support Bush, are obviously forgotten.


First, "all the other countries, which didn't support Bush", are NOT obviously forgotten.

Second, all the countries that do support Bush are not forgotten either. Thus, Bush acted multilaterally.

It is clear that some are confused about the meaning of multilateralism.


YOU wrotr that "Bush acted without the support of three countries proven to have had vested interests in keeping Hussein in power despite his continuing murder of thousands of Iraqies".

And I was only referring to that.

Since I had 7 years Latin in school, I do know what multilateralism means.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:13 pm
Of course, rocket doggy has shown that he has difficulty inderstanding the definitions of many words.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 04:30 pm
Does everybody remember the arm twisting and Bullying Bush had to do to get his pathetic "coalition" together?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 05:02 pm
Yeah, even offered billions to Turkey.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 05:02 pm
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 05:22 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
Does everybody remember the arm twisting and Bullying Bush had to do to get his pathetic "coalition" together?

By my count the "coalition is not pathetic at all.
Collectively; they represent roughly a quarter of the planet's countries and a quarter of the planet's citizens. So the anti-war crowd explains this away as they are not the important countries. What then constitutes an important country? Must not be money because collectively the coalition also represents about 2 thirds of the planet's wealth by GDP. How partisan do you have to be in your views before you can define these statistics as pathetic, and our actions as Unilateral? That argument just doesn't add up.

Every major race, religion, ethnicity in the world is represented along with nations from every continent on the globe. Unilateral is a pretty silly definition in light of the facts.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 05:37 pm
Bill, you are aware that the "coalitiopn" only exists because the member nations were paid by the US to be members. Contrast this with the coalition involved in GWI and explain to me, then how you can make the statement:
Quote:
Every major race, religion, ethnicity in the world is represented along with nations from every continent on the globe. Unilateral is a pretty silly definition in light of the facts.

For your benefit, I am including (yet another) link to a list of coalition members.Who are the current coalition members?
Let me add that this list, the official list from the US government, is innaccurate, since it lists Turkey as a member (the list was likely compiled before the people of Turkey showed the Bush administration that as a democracy they had no duty to endorse an act of imperialism).
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 05:55 pm
Bob, did you happen to read the last few lines of the link you provided? Laughing
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 05:58 pm
"Collectively; they represent roughly a quarter of the planet's countries and a quarter of the planet's citizens."
Challange----because some governments obligated their nations resources does not necessarily indicate that their citizens followed suit with support.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 05:59 pm
I did. I took them with a large grain of salt. I also noted that Turkey was on the list, which says a lot about the honesty of the administation and people who believe them.
Now, some homework for you, frat-boy... exactly what is each "member" contributing, and how much were they compensated for their participation?
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 06:22 pm
I get your point Dys, and concede that in the model I used, the citizens were represented by virtue of their countries participation.

hobitbob wrote:
I did. I took them with a large grain of salt. I also noted that Turkey was on the list, which says a lot about the honesty of the administation and people who believe them.?
On the date of the release of that list, the US still anticipated Turkey's cooperation... Effectively nullifying my inference of your implications.
hobitbob wrote:
Now, some homework for you, frat-boy...
You were off to a pretty good start Bob... why resort to petty insults?
hobitbob wrote:
... exactly what is each "member" contributing, and how much were they compensated for their participation?
This is a better argument, Bob... but not one that cancels out the FACT that this was not a unilateral action nor a "pathetic coalition"... which are the two points I was arguing against. I don't feel like indulging your point obscuring tactics at this time. My original point still stands… and your source confirms it.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2004 06:27 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
MORE QUESTIONS FOR THOSE ON THE LEFT


Ican, I am looking for time to answer this. It is easier to ask questions than formulate answers, of course, but this would not be a difficult test as long as one is not looking for absolutes but reasonable thoughts.
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