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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:56 am
We shall see...
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 09:40 am
Australian diplomat: "Syria is a country which has been a bastard state for 40 years".

Makes you wonder what the undiplomatic Australians might say.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 09:53 am
LOL!
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 12:46 pm
Another city in Iraq appears to be ready to flare up.

Quote:
Iraqi Cleric Urges Action Against U.S.

By Sewell Chan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, April 3, 2004; Page A01


BAGHDAD, April 2 -- An influential Shiite Muslim cleric whose newspaper was shuttered for printing inflammatory articles called Friday for his followers to strike back at officials and appointees of the U.S.-led occupation authority.



"I and my followers of the believers have come under attack from the occupiers, imperialism and the appointees," Moqtada Sadr said in a sermon in the southern town of Kufa, outside the holy city of Najaf. "Be on the utmost readiness, and strike them where you meet them."

On Friday evening, clashes erupted in Kufa. Residents said that rocket-propelled grenades and mortars were fired but that it was unclear who was involved. At some point in the fighting, gunmen killed Kufa's police chief, Col. Saeed Tiryak, and a colleague, according to Iraqi police sources quoted by the Reuters news agency. ...............


A particular concern has been Sadr's militia, called the Mahdi Army, which was formed last year and has thousands of members. The United States wants to dissolve the militias affiliated with several Shiite organizations in southern Iraq because of the threat they pose to stability in Iraq after the planned end of the civil occupation on June 30............


Sadr also threw his support behind two militant organizations: Hezbollah, based in Lebanon, and Hamas, based in the Palestinian territories. "From here, I declare my solidarity with the solidarity between Hezbollah and Hamas," Sadr said. "May they consider me their striking hand in Iraq, whenever necessity requires it."


From today's Washington Post
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 02:58 pm
McTag wrote:
I wish we could get over the Clinton/ Bush thing.
...
For the purposes of this thread I think that irrelevant. From my point of view American domestic politics could better be left to another thread.
...


HOORAY!

Perhaps we can now focus on tradeoffs among the alternative policies for the US in the Middle East.

For example:
1. Perform a total pull out of US military from the Middle East.
2. Remain in Iraq and Afghanistan until we establish secure representative democracies; then pull out.
3. Kill Jihadists, other terrorists, and suspected terorists whereever we can find them, as many as we can, as rapidly as we can.
4. Appease as many jihadists and other terrorists as we can.
5. Maintain the status quo.
6. Conquer the Middle East and make it a territory of the US.
7. Criticize which ever US policies are adopted until current administration is replaced.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 04:25 pm
Is that a poll?
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 04:34 pm
The Marines are preparing to shock and aweFalluja:

Quote:
On the outskirts of this hostile city Friday night, battalions from the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force set up checkpoints and camps in preparation for their eventual return.

As they braced for one of the season's first blistering sandstorms, some Marines also geared for battle, saying they were eager to avenge Wednesday's brutal killings of four American security contractors.

"I've got a lot of hate inside me, but I try to put that aside," said Sgt. Eric Nordwig, 29, of Riverside, a veteran of the battle that toppled Saddam Hussein. "We just sit and take it and be mortared."

The time has come to "clean up the town," he said.

Marine officials have insisted that any military strike would be "precise" and "overwhelming."

Col. J.C. Coleman, chief of staff for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, said this morning that Fallouja was key to stabilizing central Iraq.

"Fallouja is a barrier on the highway to progress. We're going to eliminate that barrier without damaging the highway," he said.


Falluja is not a town; it is a city of 250,000. Comparable to Des Moines, or Fort Lauderdale, or Salt Lake City.

How many of those citizens of Falluja will be welcoming the Marines with hugs, flowers, and parades?

Probably none:

Quote:
Residents called the attack a justified response to a Marine patrol through Fallouja last week that ended in a firefight, killing one Marine and about 18 Iraqi insurgents and civilians.

"It is inevitable that the sons of Fallouja will kill the Americans and mutilate their corpses," said resident Fadhil Badrani. "Though mutilation is not allowed in Islam, the grudge and malice in the hearts of the people led them to do this because of the repeated American provocation."


In the next few days (or weeks) we will bear witness to the fueling of the conflagration the Bush administration has created in Iraq.

American air forces will pulverize large sections of the city for a few days, then the newly-rotated-in members of the 1st Expeditionary, hungry for a little action, will go in and "mop up."

Tens -- perhaps hundreds -- of American soldiers, and thousands -- perhaps tens of thousands -- of Iraqis will be killed. We'll never know exactly how many Iraqis, of course; our government doesn't keep count.

And if other cities in Iraq erupt in the wake, it wil be all the worse.

I hope like hell I'm wrong.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 05:15 pm
Its erupting in Baghdad too:
The Civil War Begins?
Quote:
US tanks deploy in Baghdad as Shiite radicals take to streets
2 hours, 35 minutes ago

Add Mideast - AFP to My Yahoo!

BAGHDAD (AFP) - US tanks deployed in the Iraqi capital to stop hundreds of angry protestors marching on the coalition's city-centre headquarters as Shiite Muslim radicals took to the streets across central and southern Iraq


The protest in the capital turned violent as some supporters of radical leader Moqtada Sadr threw themselves at the US tanks and a police officer said at least two of the demonstrators had been crushed.

There was no immediate confirmation of the deaths from police headquarters or the US military.

Huge protests were also held in the central pilgrimage city of Najaf and as far south as Amara, while unarmed militiamen from Sadr's Mehdi Army paraded in Sadr City, a sprawling mainly Shiite neighbourhood of the capital regarded as a radical stronghold.

Sadr's followers have held almost daily demonstrations to protest the decision by the coalition last Sunday to close his weekly newspaper for 60 days on charges of inciting violence.

Early Saturday, Sadr supporters took to the streets of Najaf, reacting to unfounded rumours that Spanish coalition soldiers had detained Mustafa Yaacubi, the head of his office in the city.

Spanish commanders "categorically" denied the charge in a statement that was distributed to the crowd that formed outside the headquarters of the Spanish-led Plus Ultra Brigade in Najaf until mid-evening.

The protestors dismissed the denial, demanding the release of Yaacubi and calling for another sit-in to take place Sunday morning.

Rumours of Yaacubi's arrest also spread to the southern city of Amara where thousands of protestors took to the streets to vent their anger, an AFP correspondent said.

Sheikh Qais al-Khazaali, the head of Sadr's office in Baghdad, warned that his movement would react if Yaacubi was not quickly released.

"This is a new provocation by the coalition forces," Sheikh Khazaali told AFP. "If he is not quickly released, our movement, our leadership and our supporters will react with the means at our disposal."

Another rumour that coalition forces were surrounding Sadr's office in Najaf spread in the afternoon, prompting hundreds of his followers to head to the coalition's Baghdad headquarters in buses and cars, correspondents said.

Their advance was stopped by police units and at least half a dozen US tanks which cordoned off streets leading to the heavily fortified administrative compound.

An AFP correspondent saw one young man lunging at a tank which stopped abruptly without harming him. The crowd cheered the young man and then protestors upturned carts to block the road.

"There were two or three dead among the protestors who threw themselves under American tanks which could not avoid them," said Sergeant Abbas Mohamad.

In similar clashes Friday evening, three Salvadoran soldiers were shot and wounded as they tried to disarm what the San Salvador (news - web sites) press described as pro-Sadr militiamen in Kufa, just outside Najaf.

Major Carlos Herradon, spokesman for the Plus Ultra Brigade, said the shooting erupted when the troops tried to disarm the militiamen in the shrine city, a Sadr stronghold, and a group of them opened fire.



He added that one of the soldiers remained in hospital Saturday.

Unlike the mainstream Shiite religious parties -- the Dawa and the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq -- Sadr has refused to take part in coalition-installed interim bodies and has had often troubled relations with coalition troops.

But the weekend's demonstrations marked a sharp escalation of the radical leader's campaign of opposition to the US-led occupation.

The violence came as UN special envoy Lakhdar Brahimi was due to return to Baghdad within two days to discuss the coalition's plans to transfer power to a caretaker government by June 30 and hold elections by the end of January.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 08:23 pm
sumac wrote:
Is that a poll?


No! It's merely my unsuccessful attempt to start some discussion on the pros and cons of various policies.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:54 am
A clear view ....

Quote:


COMPLETE ARTICLE
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 11:14 am
Quote:
More probably it is merely part of American self-defense.


Icant, my response to this would be unprintable on the thread.

pDiddie, I thought the same thing when I read the words of the Admin.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 03:15 pm
Hobitbob, that is a splendid atavar. What is the source?
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 03:22 pm
The Ingeborg Psalter. I have a bunch of manusctript illumination photos on my hard drive, if you would like copies. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 03:43 pm
"The Observer" newspaper here said today, that Tony Blair and GWB had agreed to attack Iraq even before the bombing of Afghanistan had started, and shortly after 9-11.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,6903,1185407,00.html

This means Tony Blair lied to the country, as he said for months after that that no final decision had been made. He actually made the decision, and committed the country and its armed forces, long before, according to this.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 06:45 pm
Gelisgesti,

Thanks for the link to the Human Rights Watch article. Good article and it brings up valid points and well thought out suggestions and criteria to be used when deciding to use forceful intervention to prevent humanitarian abuses in sovereign states. Problem is that its rightly narrowly focused attention towards humanitarian abuses as reason for such intervention in Iraq is of little significance.

The article is correct in its insinuation that the Bush Admin's shift towards a humanitarian rationale for the Iraqi invasion was disingenuous. The Admin's overall policy involving MEI (The Middle East Initiative) was the driving force behind the invasion. In this the Admin had a policy in search of implementation. The fact that Saddam not only had WMD, had demonstrated his willingness to use them time and again, and his nose thumbing at the global (UN) demand that it divest itself of such weapons (manifested by his refusal to comply with UNSCR 1441) served as the tripwire for the Admin to proceed towards the noble goal of not only ridding the ME region of Islamic radicals but the sovereign states that sponsored them and threatened not only the area but the stability of the world economy. Was this imperialistic? Maybe to some, but the goal was to seed the area with the kernel of democracy, not to plunder its resources. In short the goal was not only to drain the ME swamp of tyrants and radical Islamists but to prevent such "business as usual" by the establishment of a more democratic "state of mind" that would snowball and force the democratization of all regimes in the area.

But Mr. Roth, the author of this article, informs us how the U.S. went terribly wrong by not using UN backed legitimacy to validate its decision to clean up the Dark Ages mentality of the ME, even given such humanitarian atrocities. So we see that, in principle, Human Rights Watch:

Quote:
"can only welcome this renewed concern with the fate of faraway victims. What could be more virtuous than to risk life and limb to save distant people from slaughter? But the common use of the humanitarian label masks significant differences among these interventions (Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor, Sierra Leone). The French intervention in the Democratic Republic of Congo, later backed by a reinforced U.N. peacekeeping presence, was most clearly motivated by a desire to stop ongoing slaughter. In Liberia and Côte d'Ivoire, West African and French forces intervened to enforce a peace plan but also played important humanitarian roles... All of these African interventions were initially or ultimately approved by the U.N. Security Council. Indeed, in each case the recognized local government consented to the intervention, though under varying degrees of pressure."


Contrarily,

Quote:


But we find that UN legitimization in some of these interventions was after the fact ("ultimately"). Are we then to believe that when the UN finally enters Iraq, again, the action then falls under an international legal umbrella?

But further along in our reading Mr. Roth informs us that:

Quote:


So such intervention sans UN approval is OK. But I am still fuzzy on exactly who is so empowered to make the final judgment. The author seems more comfortable using the power of hindsight and the always wise counsel of second guessing after the fact.

Mr. Roth is right in condemning the Bush Administration's weasel like rationale substitution regarding humanitarian reasons for "regime change". However he too easily falls into the trap of assuming the UN's approval to such actions gives them some sort of global approval that they would never have otherwise.

The Iraq situation, however, has moved on. Important now is Iraq's political future. On this hinges the fate of all those in the ME and those of the West. We must use massive amounts of time, money, and personnel to use this last chance to get it right. Senator Joe Biden of DE has laid it out for us:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48295-2004Apr3.html

As Sen. Biden points out, the US, Europe, and all those in the ME have a large stake in getting this right. If G.W. Bush has any sense of responsibility he must finish the job-- the invasion was the easy part. Ordering the world's most powerful military to send in 2-3 Divisions of troops to conquer a medieval society possessing mostly 20 year old outdated military equipment does not demonstrate leadership. Organizing allies and UN resources and combining it with the security potential of the U.S. to create a Democratic Iraqi Island in a sea of tyrants who fear change and ignorant murders whose biggest dream is to become such despots will call for real leadership. I have not seen such leadership so demonstrated by Bush. Indeed, the Bush White House always seems to slip so easily into a siege mentality merely presenting defenses when criticized. Offensively this Admin seems capable of little more than ad Hominem, especially towards those it feels has wronged it. In Addition, the most powerful leader on the planet appears weak and impotent when agreeing to appear before the 9/11 panel only if his surrogate Daddy, Dick Cheney, is able to hold his hand. Perhaps the commission should eliminate the middleman altogether and just question the Vice President.

Read Biden's thoughts, do your own research, form your opinion, and then write the White House explaining your concerns. America has picked and is responsible for the lemons. It is now up to us to make the lemonade...or not.

Respectfully,

JM
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:30 pm
ican711nm wrote:
HOORAY!

Perhaps we can now focus on tradeoffs among the alternative policies for the US in the Middle East.

For example:
1. Perform a total pull out of US military from the Middle East.
2. Remain in Iraq and Afghanistan until we establish secure representative democracies; then pull out.
3. Kill Jihadists, other terrorists, and suspected terorists whereever we can find them, as many as we can, as rapidly as we can.
4. Appease as many jihadists and other terrorists as we can.
5. Maintain the status quo.
6. Conquer the Middle East and make it a territory of the US.
7. Criticize which ever US policies are adopted until current administration is replaced.


lol

not bad, icann. I don't buy 4) as being applicable to anyone (at all, really), but yeh, i've seen some 7)s around this place ... <grins>

I'm a 2), btw. But i think thats only the start of the discussion, cause it raises more questions than it answers ... what needs to be done to do so? when should it be considered achieved? under whose command/coordination should it happen? is doing it wrong better than not doing it at all? etc ...
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:31 pm
Im a two, too. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:39 pm
Quote:
2. Remain in Iraq and Afghanistan until we establish secure representative democracies; then pull out.


I ask:
Quote:
What are the risks?
What are the rewards?
How should it be accomplished?
How does the current process need to be rectified regardless of who leads it?


Nimh asked:
Quote:
what needs to be done to do so? when should it be considered achieved? under whose command/coordination should it happen? is doing it wrong better than not doing it at all? etc ...


Does anyone want to propose an approach?
0 Replies
 
Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:43 pm
McTag wrote.

Quote:
Australian diplomat: "Syria is a country which has been a bastard state for 40 years".

Makes you wonder what the undiplomatic Australians might say.


This is a misquote.

Quote:
"CORRECTION. A story headlined 'Syria seeks our help to woo US' in Saturday's Weekend Australian misquoted [NSW] National Party senator, Sandy Macdonald. "The quote stated, 'Syria is a country that has been a bastard state for nearly 40 years, but should have read, 'Syria is a country that has been a Baathist state for nearly 40 years.' The Australian regrets any embarrassment caused by the error."


Sandy Macdonald is not a diplomat either.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2004 07:57 pm
lol!

bastard - baathist, huh.

ya gotta wonder about the mindstate of that journalist - how he looks at that state, the region - or perhaps, what he is used to (or expects) australian politicians to be saying ...
0 Replies
 
 

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