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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 06:07 pm
Then it is just something for you guys to whine about then. Well, go right ahead. When you want to pop your heads back out into the real world, we could continue this discussion.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 06:10 pm
Admitting that the situation is flocked up, and looking for ways to fix it. is living in the real world. Pretending that the world of your fantasies exists, as many on the far right do, implies pathology.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 07:06 pm
I think I have missed the original posts that you two were trying to make - gets muddied up in all of the asides. Sigh.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 08:52 pm
McGent must watch Fox News.
*************************
A Knight Ridder report on a major new study released last week, shows that a majority of Americans have held at least one of three mistaken impressions about the US-led war in Iraq, and those misperceptions contributed to much of the popular support for the war. The study,
entitled "Misperceptions, The Media and the Iraq War", conducted by the Program
on
International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) at the University of Maryland,
also
showed that the more people watched certain commercial news media, the
more
likely they were to hold at least one of the misperceptions. The study
found that those who primarily watch Fox News are significantly more
likely
to have misperceptions, while those who primarily listen to NPR or
watch
PBS are significantly less likely.

"When evidence surfaces that a significant portion of the public has
just
got a hole in the picture ... this is a potential problem in the way
democracy functions," says Clay Ramsay, research director for the
Washington-based Program on International Policy Attitudes, which
studies
foreign-policy issues.

The study looked at three propositions, which to date -- according to
government reports and accepted public surveys -- are false:

* US forces found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
* There's clear evidence that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein
worked closely with the Sept. 11 terrorists.
* People in foreign countries generally either backed the US-
led war or were evenly split between supporting and opposing it.

The Baltimore Sun reports that sixty percent of all respondents
believed in
at least one of the statements. But there were clear differences in
perceptions among devotees of the various media outlets. Eighty percent
of
Fox News viewers were likely to hold one of the three incorrect
beliefs.
Only 23 percent of the NPR/PBS audience held one of the three incorrect
beliefs.

Seventy-one percent of those who relied on CBS for news
held a false impression, as did 61 percent of ABC's audience,
and 55 percent of NBC viewers. Fifty-five percent of CNN
viewers and 47 percent of Americans who rely on the print
media as their primary source of information also held at
least one misperception.

In total, 45 percent of Fox viewers believed all three misperceptions,
while the other commercial networks scored between 12 percent and 16
percent. Only nine percent of print readers believed all three, while
only
four percent of the NPR/PBS audience did.

Interestingly, the study found that these misperceptions are not the
result
of a lack of attention to current events. The more people watched
commercial TV, the more likely they were to hold a misperceptions (only
CNN
reversed this trend). Only those who read print more often were likely
to
have "fewer misperceptions as they pay more attention." The Sun reports
that Fox News declined to be interviewed for their story. (It should
also
be noted that very few American media outlets mentioned in the study
reported on its findings.) NPR spokeswoman Laura Gross told the Sun,
"It
proves that what we're doing is great journalism. We're telling the
truth
and we let our audience decide."

The study also revealed some political dimensions to people's beliefs.
Republicans who followed the news closely were more likely to hold
misperceptions, while Democrats who didn't follow the news were more
likely
to hold one of the three statements to be true. While 50 percent of
Republicans who listen to NPR/PBS believed one of the statements, few,
if
any Democrats did.

The response to the report differed. The Inter Press Service News
Agency
quotes Marvin Kalb, a former television correspondent and a senior
fellow
of the Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy at
the
Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, who called the
report a
"dangerously revealing study."

While Kalb said he had some reservations about the specificity of the
questions directed at the respondents, he noted that, "People who have
had
a strong belief that there is an unholy alliance between politics and
the
press now have more evidence." Fox, in particular, has been accused of
pursuing a chauvinistic agenda in its news coverage despite its motto,
"We
Report, You Decide."

Conservative talk radio host Rush Limbaugh took a dim view of the
study,
especially for the positive marks it gave to NPR. Mr. Limbaugh gave his
'Caller of the Day' award to a man from Massachusetts who said "I think
it's time for us to do our own study. Let's take a sample of NPR
listeners,
and see what percentage of them believes flagrantly false propositions
about US history, or economics, or any other subject."

The American Journalism Review takes a lengthy look in its
October/November
issue at the question 'Does the media cause misperceptions among the
public?' In the article, both liberal and conservative journalists and
commentators argue that one reason that people held these false
impression
is that they feel Saddam Hussein is such an evil person that anything
bad
about him must be true. Others felt that "the general public doesn't
necessarily watch entire newscasts, read entire newspapers and consume
the
large quantities of reports that political types or those in
Washington,
D.C., might." And newspaper editors say that the coverage of the war in
Iraq was quite comprehensive, and they don't fault the media for any
lingering public misperceptions.

Karlyn Bowman, resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute,
says
that people are more likely to be guided by their values when answering
these questions than by what's actually going on.

"I think journalists assume that American opinions are based on facts,
because most people in journalism are dealing with facts on a regular
basis," says Bowman, who studies public opinion. "I'm not sure that's
how
the American people, being mostly inattentive, make decisions and form
opinions." They are "more likely to consult their values."

But along with numerous other reasons, the study's authors point to the
role played by the Bush administration, particularly Vice President
Cheney,
in perpetuating some of the misperceptions. And PIPA's program director
Stephen Kull cited instances in which TV and newspapers gave prominent
coverage to reports that banned weapons might have been found in Iraq,
but
only modest coverage when those reports turned out to be wrong. Susan
Moeller, a University of Maryland professor, said that much reporting
had
consisted of "stenographic coverage of government statements", with
less
attention to whether the government's statements were accurate.

PIPA is a joint program of the Center on Policy Attitudes (COPA) and
the
Center for International and Security Studies at Maryland (CISSM),
School
of Public Affairs, University of Maryland. The study was based on a
series
of seven nationwide polls conducted from January through September of
2003.
For the entire study of seven polls the total sample was 9,611
respondents,
and for the in-depth analysis, the sample was 3,334 respondents.
Funding
for this research was provided by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund and the
Ford Foundation.

The polls were conducted by Knowledge Network, using its nationwide
panel,
which is randomly selected from the entire adult population and
subsequently provided internet access. The Monitor reported on the new
polling techniques being developed by Knowledge Networks in 2000.
Author
Michael Lewis also profiled the company in his book and TV series, "The
Future Just Happened."

The full report and the questions asked can be found at PIPA.
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/Media_10_02_03_Report.pdf
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2004 11:51 pm
An Open Letter from Michael Moore to George "I'm a War President!" Bush February 11, 2004 (67th anniversary of the Great Flint Sit-Down Strike)

Dear Mr. Bush,

Thank you for providing the illegible Xeroxed partial payroll sheets (or
whatever they were) yesterday covering a few of your days in the National Guard. Now we know that, not only didn't you complete your tour of duty, you were actually paid for work you never did. Did you cash those checks? Wouldn't that be, um, illegal?

Watching the press aggressively demand the truth from your press secretary -- and refusing to accept the deceit, the dodging, and the cover-up -- was a sight to behold, something we really haven't seen since you took office (to watch or listen to the entire press conference, or to read the full transcript, go here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040210-3.html).

More than one reporter pointed out that those pieces of paper your press
secretary waved at them yesterday mean nothing. Even if they aren't forged documents, getting paid does not necessarily mean you showed up to do your duties. As retired Army Col. Dan Smith, a 26-year veteran, told the AP:

"Pay records don't mean anything except that you're in or you're out,"
said Smith. "It doesn't necessarily reflect what duty you've actually performed because pay records simply record your unit of assignment and then all of your pay and benefits per pay period."

Mr. Bush, this issue is not going to go away -- and I think yesterday's
actions just dug you into a deeper hole. You're probably wondering why
the heck this story won't just die. You probably thought that after I brought it up last month and then got slammed by Peter Jennings for uttering the "d" word, the whole matter would just disappear as fast as bag of blow being thrown out the window of a speeding car on a deserted Maine highway.

But your "desertion" didn't go away -- and here's the reason why. You have sent countless numbers of our sons and daughters in the National Guard to their deaths in the last 11 months. You did this while misleading their parents and the nation with bogus lies about weapons of mass destruction and scary phony Saddam ties to al Qaeda. You sent them off to a never-ending war so that your benefactors at Halliburton and the oil companies could line their pockets. And then you had the audacity to prance around in a soldier's uniform on an aircraft carrier proclaiming "Mission Accomplished" -- while the cameras from your re-election campaign ad agency rolled.

THAT is what makes this whole business of you being AWOL so despicable, and makes the grief-stricken relatives want to turn away from you in disgust.
The reason your skipping-out on your enlistment didn't matter in the 2000
election was because we were not at war. Being stuck in a deadly, daily quagmire now in 2004 makes your military history-fiction and your fly-boy costume VERY relevant.

You still have not answered the questions surrounding your National Guard "service." Let me repeat them as simply as I can for you (all of them based on the investigative work of the Associated Press and the Boston Globe):

1. How were you able to jump ahead of 500 other applicants to get into
the Texas Air National Guard, thus guaranteeing you would not have to go to Vietnam? What calls did your father (who was then a United States Congressman representing Texas) make on your behalf for you to get this assignment?

2. Why were you grounded (not allowed to fly) after you either failed
your physical or failed to take it in July 1972? Was there a reason you were afraid to take the physical? Or, did you take it and not pass it? If so, why didn't you pass it? Was it the urine test? The records show that, after the Guard spent years and lots of money training you to be a pilot, you never flew for the rest of your time in the Guard. Why?

3. Can you produce one person who can verify that he served with you in
the Guard during the year that your Texas commanders said you did not show up? Why have you failed to bring forth anyone who served with you in the Guard while you were in Alabama? Why hasn't ONE SINGLE PERSON come forward?

4. Can you tell us what you did when you claim to have shown up in Alabama for Guard duty? What were you duties? You were grounded, so what did they have you do instead?

5. Where are the sign-up sheets that would have your name and service number on them for each weekend you showed up? Aaron Brown on CNN told us how, when he was in the reserves, he had to sign in each time he reported, and his guest from the Washington Post said, that's right, and there would be "four copies of that record" in the files of various agencies. Will you ask those agencies to release those records?

6. If you were in fact paid for that time when you apparently went AWOL,
will you authorize the IRS to release your 1972-73 tax returns?

7. How did you get an honorable discharge? What strings were pulled? Who called who? Look, I'm sorry to have put you through all this. I was just goofing around when I made that comment about wanting to see a debate between the general and the deserter. I had no idea that it would lead to this. And there you were, having to suffer through Tim Russert on Sunday, saying weird things like "I'm a war president!" I guess you believe that, or you want us to believe that. Americans have never voted out a Commander-in-Chief during a war. I guess that's what you're hoping for. You need the war.

But we don't. And our troops in the National Guard don't either. I know
you see the writing on the wall, so why not come clean now? We are a
forgiving people, and though you will not be returned to White House, you
will find us grateful for a little bit of truth. Answer our questions, apologize
to the nation, and bring our kids home.

Yours,
Michael Moore

[email protected]
www.michaelmoore.com
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 07:12 am
Great reporting, c.i.

I found this article this morning from the BBC. It seems that the British Army is employing Iraqi students to help translate documents and work with the public because of their knowledge of the language. Then they go and screw things up by having them wear easily identifiable helmets and other aspects of uniform, making them easily identifiable targets for snipers. What were they thinking?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3498307.stm
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:25 am
Wm Kristol on CSPAN ...... just getting started
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:36 am
That's great C.I., except we were discussing Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 08:58 am
I'm sure we can all multi-task and discuss more than one topic at a time. LOL.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:37 am
Some of us can..........
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:40 am
McGent, Isn't it strange that this forum is called, "THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI."
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:46 am
The question is .... can Bush deal with an honest man without bursting into flames?

Quote:
A U.N. Surprise

By Jim Hoagland
Wednesday, February 18, 2004; Page A19

The United Nations has tiptoed back into Iraq and the good graces of the Bush White House. These surprising developments are worth two cheers and one big, ominous question mark.


It is hard not to be impressed by the skill and audacity that led to a secretive six-day mission to Iraq last week by Lakhdar Brahimi, the Algerian diplomat who is Secretary General Kofi Annan's top troubleshooter. Getting the 70-year-old Arab nationalist to go to occupied Iraq required intense White House wooing, including two sessions with President Bush.

The imperatives that drove Bush's interest were more immediate than repairing relations with the United Nations, though that was seen as a bonus. Brahimi, it was hoped, had the credibility and standing to get through to Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. The reclusive Shiite religious leader disrupted the administration's original transition plans by demanding direct elections before the promised June 30 transfer of sovereignty.

Bush is pressing aides to make sure that the sovereignty deadline is met even if other details of the transition plan have to be altered. Sistani's still-vague indications that he would accept a U.N. recommendation to hold elections later than June 30 triggered the administration's new outreach to Annan and his U.N. staff in January.

Brahimi quickly understood that the job he was being offered was far more important than leading an election survey team. He was in fact being offered a fairly open-ended role in helping the administration manage an increasingly unwieldy transition. It was a challenge that appealed to this accomplished negotiator, who impressed U.S. officials with his fairness in negotiations that established President Hamid Karzai's government in Afghanistan.

"He was very useful in Afghanistan" and other crisis situations, said one senior administration official. Added another official: "He did not always agree with us, but he never opposed us for the sake of opposing us."

Even so, Brahimi repeatedly and emphatically told friends, U.N. staff members and journalists that he would never take on the mission. American and U.N. officials now say that Brahimi's blanket denials were in part a security measure to protect him from being targeted as was Sergio Vieira de Mello, the U.N. special representative killed in a Baghdad truck bombing in August.

Members of the election team did not know Brahimi was coming on the trip with them until he joined them in the airport departure lounge in Paris, according to one official. His arrival in Baghdad became known only after he was in the "Green Zone," the heavily guarded area that houses the Coalition Provisional Authority.

Brahimi is due to report this week to Annan, who will then make public the United Nations' recommendations on elections. But one result of the Algerian's trip is already apparent.

U.S. and Iraqi officials acknowledge that their complicated plan to use local and regional caucuses to choose an interim legislature to take power on July 1 is dead. Brahimi is said to have conceded the point to Sistani in their meeting; this allowed the diplomat to argue that a new political consensus had to emerge in Iraq before free and fair elections could be held, probably at the end of this year at the earliest.

The visible meaning of the transfer of sovereignty is now clear. The occupation authority will disband and its head, Paul Bremer, will be filmed climbing on a plane to leave Baghdad. The largest U.S. embassy in the world will then take charge of dealing with . . . whom?

One option under discussion is expanding, perhaps even doubling, the 25-member Governing Council named by Bremer last spring. This expanded council would then help Brahimi and a U.N. staff organize national elections for a constituent assembly and government.

The Brahimi mission was a diplomatic astonishment. Annan has been under enormous pressure from his staff to avoid further U.N. involvement in Iraq while occupation continues. His willingness to take the risks inherent in sending Brahimi and his team to Baghdad shows the secretary general's concern for Iraq and for the world body's relations with Washington.

But both Annan and Bush must be careful not to leave the impression that they are maneuvering to decide Iraq's fate over the heads of its people. That is the large question mark that hangs over a process that must not rely too heavily on diplomacy and too little on the hard work of encouraging and allowing local politics to flourish and Iraqis to choose.

That process, which began with the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, is moving ahead with a speed and force diplomacy cannot contain. It is time to trust the Iraqis rather than to control them.

[email protected]


Source
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 03:45 pm
Quote:
U.S. and Iraqi officials acknowledge that their complicated plan to use local and regional caucuses to choose an interim legislature to take power on July 1 is dead. Brahimi is said to have conceded the point to Sistani in their meeting; this allowed the diplomat to argue that a new political consensus had to emerge in Iraq before free and fair elections could be held, probably at the end of this year at the earliest.


From Jim Hoagland of the Washington Post, above.

Brahimi is a well-seasoned negotiator, and presumably, facilitator. His "conceding" this point could have been made for many, many reasons, not the least of which is to get Sistani to stop being so insistently strident in his opinion. Buys time, if nothing else.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 03:58 pm
This administration's plans for Iraqi indepedence is going the way of everything else this administration plans. June first for what?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:06 pm
Uhoh .... the boy's gonna be so pissed Crying or Very sad

Quote:
UN Envoy Hopes Afghanistan Will Meet Election Deadline Despite Difficulties
Michael Kitchen
Islamabad
18 Feb 2004, 18:29 UTC

AP
Jean Arnault
The top U.N. envoy to Afghanistan says he hopes national elections can be held by June as originally planned, but he cautions that rushing the process to meet the deadline would be a mistake.

U.N. envoy Jean Arnault acknowledged that the registration of Afghan voters is encountering difficulties.

The international agreement that established Afghanistan's transitional government in 2001 after the fall of the hard-line Taleban regime calls for general elections to be held by this June.

Mr. Arnault told reporters in Kabul that, to help meet this deadline, Afghan authorities and the United Nations are planning to speed up the registration process, with about 4200 centers to be set up by May.

Registration has been slow, with only one million of the estimated 10.5 million eligible voters signed up.

But Mr. Arnault says forcing a vote in June to meet the deadline would be a mistake, if it means a large number of Afghans are not given a chance to take part in the vote.

"We have to be very careful that, while we register as thoroughly as possible, we don't do it in a messy way, that we would then pay (for) at the time of elections," he said.

Registration has been delayed, in part, by an anti-government insurgency, led by Taleban remnants and their allies.

Mr. Arnault called on international troops helping to provide security in the country to stick to their commitment to create a safe environment for the elections.

Some observers also fear that Afghanistan's scores of semi-independent local militias may try to manipulate the vote in the areas they control.

Mr. Arnault says more action is needed to disarm the militias and encourage political freedom to keep the elections fair.

"Much more has to happen, so that people feel these are credible elections and not just the ratification of those in power at local levels," he said.

Election organizers are also calling for greater efforts to sign up women voters.

Roughly 25 percent of those registered so far are women, with female participation especially low in the relatively conservative south and east of the country.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:23 pm
Uhoh ...............

Quote:

9/11 - Discrepancies in the Official White House Version



2004-02-18 | Here are just a small sampling from the following long piece detailing the obvious and disturbing discrepancies in the White House's Official Version of 911. What we have heard again and again (what they want us all to believe) and the following list of provable facts are irreconcilable. Therefore the Bush White House must be both lying and covering up the for their lies, which are impeachable offences.

Here are a few of the realities that those powers that be don't want us to understand, for if we did, we would realize that this nation is being led by dangerous and untrustworthy mis-leaders who must be removed from their positions of power before they have any more chances to continue devastating the world, killing multitudes of innocent non-Americans, bankrupting our nation, making eternal enemies of us innocent Americans and destroying the minds, souls and bodies of our soldiers and their progeny.

Here is a partial list from the article below, which is an urgent call for the people of America to wake up and start thinking and acting ...

(Introduction by Gary Kohls)

Please continue for details...








Continue
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2004 09:29 pm
Continued from above.
*********
1) cellphone calls are impossible to make from planes;

2) a surprisingly small hole in the Pentagon wall could not have been caused by a large jet;

3) passenger jets cannot bank the way the Pentagon attack plane had to;

4) the flight manifestoes do not include the hijackers;

5) the early discovery of a hijacker's passport in the ruins at New York is preposterous;

6) the apparently incriminating trail of Korans and flight manuals picked up by the FBI was an obvious set-up;

7) in preceeding weeks the hijackers were behaving like mercenaries not suicidal fanatics;

8) there is no explanation for some of the fires and explosions recorded in New York, particularly at WTC 6;

9) the (three) WTC collapses (including # 6, which we never hear about) were an obvious demolition job;

10) autopsy reports show there were no Arab hijackers;

11) several alleged hijackers stole the identities of people still alive who have protested their innocence."

Now listen to the rest of this critically important story, told by a group that is politically conservative, the American Patriots Friends Network.

Their email address is [email protected]

Gary Kohls

911 Overview: Our take on the 911 events
http://anderson.ath.cx:8000/911/911first.html

Please also see:

The Family Steering Committee Statement and Questions
Regarding the 9/11 Commission Interview with President Bush
February 16, 2004 http://www.911independentcommission.org/

Please see 9/11 CitizensWatch for previous FSC releases, commentary and re-posting of recent stories on this topic in the news...
http://www.911citizenswatch.org/
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2004 06:55 am
C.i. quoted in part:

Quote:
In total, 45 percent of Fox viewers believed all three misperceptions,
while the other commercial networks scored between 12 percent and 16
percent. Only nine percent of print readers believed all three, while
only four percent of the NPR/PBS audience did.


This was an interesting report. I have found that NPR is going from strength to strength and has become balanced in its reporting, whereas it used to have a more liberal slant. The interviews on controversial subjects have strong and articulate advocates on both sides of an issue. I heard a discussion on gay marriage and was surprised by the competence level of the discussants. The anti- person was well spoken and had defendable views, and the people tending toward pro- were not ranters or flower children. Even the people who called in were outstanding. I see this more and more often on NPR.

I am reminded of a discussion on NPR about whether the print media tend to be overwhelmingly liberal, as many people claim. There were a number of journalists on the show, and a caller said that it was obvious to him that most journalists and columnists were liberal. One of the journalists replied that that is probably the case: they are better informed and more thoughtful than the average person. Therefore they come to more reasonable conclusions.

I thought that was pretty funny.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2004 07:11 am
I wonder what the caller's reaction was to the journalist's 'retort'?

c.i.
I am aghast at the point by point 'facts' reported above. They are so utterly absurd.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2004 07:20 am
sumac, everyone in the studio laughed out loud, as I did.
0 Replies
 
 

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