0
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 09:54 am
Walter

Thank you very kindly. That story (bugs found at UN) had completely disappeared after a brief bit of coverage at that time. Not that it wasn't obvious who was likely to be the bugger.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 11:18 am
FIRE TRUCKS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND IMMINENT DANGER

Quote:
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 12:41 pm
Here's another interesting article.
***************************
Making the Facts Fit the Case for War
February 8, 2004
By RICHARD GOODWIN

CONCORD, Mass.

In 1846 President James Polk announced that Mexican troops
had fired on American soldiers on American soil, and he
took the country to a war that eventually gained it
California, New Mexico and Arizona. Was the disputed soil
ours? Probably not. Did Polk distort the information he
had? Almost certainly. He wanted the territory, and he
needed a war to get it.

A first-term representative warned that if you "allow the
president to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall
deem it necessary to repel an invasion . . . you allow him
to make war at pleasure." For these words, Abraham Lincoln
received the usual reward of political courage: he
forfeited any chance of a return to Congress and was
retired to private life for more than a decade. (Although
he would do quite well after that.)

Our current dispute over the intelligence that led to the
invasion of Iraq seems to be yet another illustration of
this eternal principle: presidents and other decision
makers usually get the intelligence they want. This doesn't
mean that intelligence reports should be ignored, but that
they must be viewed with skepticism. And in my years in
government service, I had the misfortune to see desire win
out over skepticism too many times.

In 1961, when I was 28 and fresh to the Kennedy White House
from the campaign trail, I climbed to the upper reaches of
the State Department for a high-level meeting to discuss
the planned invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs. Almost
every top official involved in the operation, except for
the president, was there. Richard Bissell, a legendary
figure of cold war intelligence, the man responsible for
the U-2 spy plane, assured us that once the American-backed
rebels had established themselves, the Cuban people would
rise up against Castro. Rather tentatively, I asked Bissell
how we had reached this conclusion. He calmly turned to the
general sitting beside him and said, rather casually, "We
have an N.I.E. on that, don't we?" referring to a
classified National Intelligence Estimate. The general
nodded.

In fact, no such intelligence estimate existed. But
Bissell's primary interest in intelligence data was that it
help him get presidential approval of an operation to which
he had devoted so much energy. Perhaps, having received so
many assurances from Cuban exiles, he truly believed the
claim. But he was wrong and John F. Kennedy was wrong to
trust him - and the disaster that unfolded on the Cuban
shore in April was the result.

To his credit, President Kennedy learned from the debacle.
He reorganized his intelligence apparatus and brought
advisers whose instincts and moral compasses he trusted -
including his brother Bobby - into the inner circle of
foreign policy deliberation. Most important, the lesson
that intelligence and military advisers had to be
thoroughly challenged guided Kennedy as he later steered
the country through the Cuban missile crisis.

Unfortunately, this lesson was largely lost on the next
administration. In 1965, the duly elected but deposed
president of the Dominican Republic, Juan Bosch, was
leading a revolution against the military cabal that had
displaced him. A panicky telegram from our ambassador
detailing (largely imaginary) horrors in Santo Domingo's
streets led Lyndon B. Johnson to send in the Marines.

With our troops already in the air, Johnson called a White
House meeting to explain the decision he had already made.
Gathered in the Cabinet Room, we were told by William
Raborn, the incoming head of the C.I.A., that Communists
had infiltrated, perhaps even dominated, the Bosch
insurgency. That belief, not any supposed bloodshed, was of
course the real reason for Johnson's intervention.

After the meeting, Bill Moyers, also a Johnson aide, and I
met privately with some C.I.A. staff members. "Who were
these Communists," we asked, "and how do we know?" We were
given incredibly flimsy evidence, such as that one Bosch
confederate had been seen in an apartment building
suspected of housing a Communist cell. It proved nothing.
Yet 20,000 marines had been sent to forestall this enemy
whose very existence was suspect.

The crisis ended relatively peacefully, but not before a
storm of criticism - from the public, the press and
Congress - descended on the president, bringing his
"honeymoon" to an abrupt end. Unlike Kennedy, Johnson made
no change to the intelligence system that had misled us.

After I resigned from the White House, in 1967, I was asked
by the Pentagon to attend a meeting to assess our Vietnam
intelligence. The group consisted of several Nobel laureate
scientists and a few others including the political
scientist Richard Neustadt and the economist John Kenneth
Galbraith. What concerned us were the military's "body
count" figures of how many we had killed and also the
"infiltration rate" statistics on the flow of men and
supplies from North Vietnam to the South. When we looked
behind the comforting figures, it was clear that the method
of calculating them was prone to enormous error. The same
bodies were counted by different units, and often just
guessed at. The infiltration rate was based on the
observations of spies along the Ho Chi Minh trail, who
often concealed themselves in the nearby jungle to evade
death or capture, and therefore had no idea what was
contained in the covered trucks rolling by.

We concluded that the figures the government triumphantly
publicized to justify its claims of success could have been
off by 10 percent or by 300 percent because "the data is so
soft that we cannot state with confidence whether we have
been doing better or worse militarily over the past year."
These conclusions were ignored. The generals and the
president wanted higher body counts and lower infiltration
numbers. And that's what they got.

Those now trying to figure out what went wrong before the
war in Iraq should bear in mind a simple truth: we are more
likely to "know" what we want to know than what we don't
want to know. That human flaw is built into the very
process of making intelligence estimates. Perhaps the only
way to counter it is if those who make the final decision
beware taking a large risk on what is, inevitably,
speculation. As Kennedy told the National Security Council
in the days after the Bay of Pigs, "we're not going to have
any search for scapegoats . . . the final responsibilities
of any failure is mine, and mine alone."

Richard Goodwin was a White House assistant to Presidents
Kennedy and Johnson.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/08/opinion/08GOOD.html?ex=1077252045&ei=1&en=9a4b445b7305a423
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 02:13 pm
What's wrong with president Bush's statement? Can you name one or several?
**************************************
"It's a war of necessity. We-- in my judgment, we had no choice when we look at the intelligence I looked at that says the man was a threat," Bush said.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 02:19 pm
From Reuters.
************
"The president defended putting off the results of a bipartisan investigation of Iraq intelligence until March 31, 2005, well after the election, and he stopped short of saying he would testify before it, saying only he would be glad to "visit with them," share knowledge and make recommendations."

Anybody want to lead this blind commission without much authority to investigate?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2004 04:41 pm
Did you notice that he did not answer that question? When Russert asked him why the Brits were doing a shorter inquiry and the US one would (conveniently) be completed after the election, he dodged the issue completely. He said it was a long ranging look at the intelligence services and was not focused on Iraq intel in particular.

He didn't answer the next question either.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 02:39 am
I'm thinking this morning a little bit about the value system of a government that can order an immediate inquiry into a bare breast and take a year to launch one into a bare-faced lie presented as a pretext for war.

Although, Gary Younge in today's Guardian says, I should leave that aside :wink: :

The premise for this war was not security but politics - and it is our politicians who should be in the dock
Ignorance is no excuse

related opinion in today's International Herald Tribune by Friedman:
America's 1 percent war
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 04:37 pm
Document appears to seek al Qaeda help in Iraq

Excerpt

Monday, February 9, 2004 Posted: 2:06 PM EST (1906 GMT)



BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A 17-page document seized at a suspected al Qaeda safe house in Baghdad appears to have requested al Qaeda's help in sparking a civil war in Iraq, setting Shiite Muslims against Sunni Muslims, U.S. officials said Monday.

Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Monday officials believe the letter was written by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a Jordanian believed connected to al Qaeda, and meant for Osama bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

The document, first reported in The New York Times, takes credit for 25 suicide attacks in Iraq, and says U.S. troops make easy targets.

But the writer states that few Iraqis have been willing to support his fighters beyond offering them refuge, and said they will "lose the pretext" for waging attacks if a new Iraqi government takes power as scheduled at the end of June.

Dexter Filkins, a New York Times reporter who was given access to the document by the U.S. military, told CNN they prove nothing "other than the fact that these operatives in Iraq want some help."

Further, he said, the author of the document was "deferential" to the recipient, "basically saying we're not trying to compete," but we're ready to do what you want us to do.

"Assuming it was authentic ... it was a stark admission that things were not going very well for them," he said on CNN's "American Morning."

In Washington, Secretary of State Colin Powell said the document provided a "very revealing" look at the strategy of at least one element of the opposition to the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq.

"They describe the weaknesses they have in their efforts to undercut the coalition's efforts, but at the same time it shows they haven't given up," Powell said.

Coalition Provisional Authority spokesman Dan Senor agreed, saying the letter "clearly outlines what has been working from our perspective."

"The document expresses great concern about our efforts to hand over sovereignty to the Iraqis," Senor said. "In fact, it explicitly says that once Iraqis are in control of their government, it will make it virtually impossible for the foreign terrorists to operate."

The letter was on a computer disk captured in January along with Hassan Ghul, a man identified as an al Qaeda courier, senior coalition officials said. Ghul identified Zarqawi as the letter's author, one official said.

In a speech to the United Nations February 5, 2003, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell cited Zarqawi's presence in northern Iraq as evidence of a "sinister nexus between Iraq and the al Qaeda terrorist network."

On Monday, Powell said the Zarqawi document "certainly lends some credence" to those claims.

U.S. officials said last month that mounting evidence suggests Zarqawi was involved in some of last year's major attacks in Iraq -- against Italian forces, U.N. headquarters in Baghdad and the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf. (Full story)

The first attack killed 16 Italian soldiers, two Italian civilians and nine Iraqis in Nasiriya. More than 20 people, including United Nations envoy Sergio Vieira de Mello, were killed in the headquarters bombing. The mosque attack in Najaf killed 126 people, including a Shiite spiritual leader.

Zarqawi, who is suspected of masterminding the slaying of an American diplomat in Amman, Jordan, moved into Iraq to plan the attacks, officials believe. Although not a member of al Qaeda, he is affiliated with the terrorist organization, officials say.

Source
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 07:22 pm
Quote:
On Monday, Powell said the Zarqawi document "certainly lends some credence" to those claims.


No, it doesn't. This is essentially a lie, and Powell knows it. He is suggesting this document constitutes some sort of evidence of administration claims that the two were colluding before the war. Of course, it only (if it is real, which we'll assume) demonstrates that NOW someone in al Qaeda has made an offer of help/cooperation to someone in Iraq. Powell knows that, as does almost everyone else who has commented on this document.

It is more reasonable to make the claim that the US action STIMULATED such cooperative ties as there is no evidence of such ties before the war. That's, in fact, a consequence which concerned many non-administration people before the war began.

The only real knowledge which this piece, and Powell's comments, allows us is that this administration continues to have little regard for the truth, and clearly, almost no respect for the electorate, who can't be trusted with other than pablum-style descriptions of the world.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 07:34 pm
blatham, Not to worry. If and when somebody pulls the string, it will all unravel like everything else this administration has lied about.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 07:35 pm
blatham, might I remind you that the discovery process is on going and nothing is concrete as of yet.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 07:36 pm
That is absolutely true, blatham. The spin that is put on that new info chills my blood. This is total calculated distortion.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 07:48 pm
Everyone's assuming they know what has been found and is going to be found, blatham is assuming to know what Powell knows when he damn well doesn't, and he knows it.

I am as skeptical as most about this issue but it is far from over and I feel you have to keep a somewhat open mind about it at least.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 08:08 pm
Brand X, I have tried and (largely) succeeded in keeping an open mind for the past eighteen months, although I was an early doubter about WMDs in Iraq. There was just too much evidence to the contrary, and yes, I do mean the inspectors. From now until November, we must filter any word out of the administration through the spin-detection-device.

Finally, at last, we are hearing from the formerly timid commentators who would not speak truth to power.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2004 08:14 pm
Brand

Jesus...when ought an open mind to start thinking about closing?

Before the war began, the weapons inspectors had found nothing, and various voices (Blix and others involved) said "We haven't found anything". Rumsfeld said, "We know what palm trees they are under". You know all the claims that have followed, and that none have been born out.

Now, David Kay believes it probable that nothing will be found. Not because all the sandy real estate has been dug up, but because the hypothesized sites have all proved empty, and because no other evidence of on-going programs has turned up (and we can imagine how many manhours have gone into that study).

The point here Brand is that these guys in the administration continue to yank your chain, as Powell does with his suggestion, or as Rumsfeld does with his maintenance of the 'we don't know for sure yet' line. They are telling you this NOT because it is a best estimate of reality (which is what Kay is doing), but in order to save the administration.

Even if something is yet found, say a vat of sarin somewhere, even that will not erase all the other lies that have been promulgated by these guys.

So, for god's sake, be open minded about when you ought to cease being open-minded on this matter.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 05:10 am
Thats right Blatham, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.

What do you think of Blair sending Prince Charles to Iran, and inviting the Lybians for talks in London?
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 05:58 am
U.S. Holds Another of Iraq's Most Wanted
Mon Feb 9, 5:51 PM ET

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - American forces in Iraq (news - web sites) have detained one of the remaining most-wanted members of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s government, defense officials said Monday.

Muhsin Khadr al-Khafaji, No. 48 on the 55 most-wanted list, was turned over last weekend to U.S. troops in the Baghdad area, the officials said, speaking on the condition of anonymity. The officials did not say who turned him over.

U.S. Central Command described Khadr as the chairman of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party in the Qadisiyah Governorate, a region in south-central Iraq. In December, military officials announced he had a $1 million bounty on his head; it was unclear whether that money would be collected.

He was the three of diamonds in the deck of cards the military also uses to rank the importance of senior figures from Saddam's rule.

The officials said they did not know whether Khadr was supporting Iraqi guerillas. One official said he would be interrogated.

Khadr's detention leaves only 11 of the 55 most-wanted still at-large. The highest-ranking on the list is Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, who was the vice chairman of the Baath Party's Revolutionary Command Council and a longtime confidant of Saddam.

He is No. 6 on the wanted list and U.S. forces have offered a $10 million bounty for his arrest. U.S. military officials believe he is playing an organizing role in the insurgency.

Source
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 06:01 am
Not taking any side except maybe my own, how does one go about overcoming a proclivity and still maintain an opinion?
Just thought I'd ask.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 06:11 am
Effort
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Feb, 2004 06:39 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Effort

Oh, didn't know it was that easy. Confused

Let me try it and get back to you. :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 01/12/2025 at 09:16:51