I listened to a radio interview this morning between Jack Straw (UK foreign secretary) and John Humphreys, BBC journalist famous for his fairly tough questioning and abrupt manner.
I thought good for you John, you got as near as anyone ever has in nailing the bastard.
I went back to the BBC website and listened to the interview again. You should be able to find it here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/index.shtml?focuswin
But I was so intrigued by what Straw said I decided to try and make a transcript, and added my own comments (in blue). Humphreys (in green) Straw (in black)
War on false prospectus?
If so who is to blame, politicians or intelligence agencies?
Why we took military action. To enforce the will of the UN 1441 8/11/2002. International community concluded Iraq threat to int. peace. 1441 laid down a scheme for Iraq to get into compliance. This is what have to do. This is by when. If you don’t (in material breach) serious consequences to follow.
Also Dr Blix report of Jan 27 2003. I wont be part of re writing of history to suggest we went to war on a contingency. There was nothing in 1441 that Saddam could not have complied with.
Disappointed (personally) further evidence has not come forward to support what rest of the world "genuinely believed" about weapons programs and weapons stockpiles.
Example northern Ireland after 30 years still no PIRA stockpiles weapons.
Straw did not accept the premise of the question, i.e. that we went to war on a false prospectus. He said we went to war on the basis of 1441 and what we "genuinely believed" about Saddam's wmd. But of course 1441 was not a justification for war. And no matter how hard you "genuinely believed" something before the event, it does not make it right after the event when its proved wrong. The best that can be said is that it was an honest mistake.
Humph. Never had wmd.
Straw right but stockpiles bigger that bio weapons
Straw Anthrax. Was concerned by previous UNSCOM report on Iraq that charted areas of further investigation. UNMOVIC said 10000 lit anthrax not destroyed. The size of only a single petrol tanker.
Straw says how concerned he was about "unaccounted for" wmd. But as Blix has pointed out, just because they are unaccounted for does not mean they exist. The UNMOVIC reports were the best at the time guess about what Iraq might have. After the invasion we saw what Iraq actually did have, i.e. nothing.
Hump but it was not found. Kay said they did not exist. Not just not found but did not exist past tense. New head of ISG says doubtful if did exit. Therefore did we go to war on a false prospectus. Could we have made a mistake?
Straw Kay says many unresolved issues. Maybe some gone to Syria
Hump this was denied by Syria.
Straw just makes the point that WMD issue is not finally resolved and changes the subject.
Straw The question is was decision by house of commons 18 mar. justified in light of events. Yes.
Humphreys Even if no wmd. And Iraq did not pose threat to us.
Straw. Not getting into that mode of speculation.
This is amazing. The issue of whether or not Iraqi wmd posed a threat to this country was central to the issue and to the debate. It was the justification for the war. But Straw dismisses it as speculation.
Hump Why not its crucial?
And Straw changes back to his original point about the reasons for war being failure to comply with 1441.
Straw The basis was Saddam's failure to comply with 1441
Hump But TB said threat real and current threat. Saddam had wmd deploy in 45 min. That was the picture TB painted for this country.
Straw We were all concerned. Int. community was concerned. Also Britain. Not prepared to go into Hutton.
Straw says he is not prepared to pre-empt the Hutton enquiry, when this discussion has nothing to do with Hutton, a diversionary tactic.
Hump real and current threat to this country from wmd. But was wrong. TB said serious and current threat. Proved wrong after looking
Straw H of c resolution expressed profound concern about Saddam's failure to meet 1441. 1441 was whole basis for the action.
This is also amazing. Straw now says 1441 was the whole basis for the action. So wmd had nothing to do with it!?
Britain wanted peaceful resolution as late as 7 March 2003.
18 March resolution in h of c was justified then and is still more justified now.
Iraq has been liberated from terrible tyranny. Reasons were wmd.
And now he contradicts what he said a minute ago because he brings in wmd again.
Never said Saddam posed imminent threat to UK…
Here Straw is again using weasel words, pointing out the Govt. never said Saddam posed an imminent threat to the UK. But as Humphreys goes on to say…
Hump serious and current threat? TB said (in the House) "the threat was real and growing and of an entirely different nature than Britain had ever faced before".
So Straw changes tack again and talks about getting rid of an evil dictator, and the good things that have resulted from that.
Removed terrible tyrant lots of graves found. Established representative Govt. Also good side effects Libya full declaration. Iran the same. Moves in north Korea. If no intervention.
What ifs important. If no action if walked away like some members of sec council Saddam would have been re-emboldened and threat to the region.
UN authority would have been undermined.
What he means here is that 1441 would not have been followed through. But 1441 only called for serious consequences not war. It meant another resolution, specifically authorising war had to be passed before war was legitimate. Straw tried very hard for this, but failed to get the so called "second resolution". But Britain went to war anyway….so who is undermining the authority of the UN?
ME security and therefore our security would have been threatened.
Here Straw is trying to bring in the pre-emptive argument. That Saddam would pose a threat if left in place. The idea of pre-emption was specifically ruled out as a reason for going to war. Blair even said that Saddam could remain in power provided he gave up his illegal wmd.
Hump Was it justified on basis of no wmd?
Straw war was justified. Kay says many unresolved issues. Go to UNMOVIC website. If no weapons how to explain Saddam refused to co-operate?
Humphreys Saddam was co-operating at the time inspectors withdrawn.
We wanted to give Blix more time. That was the purpose of my speech (to UN) and moving of second res. on 7th March.
This is a lie as far as I can work out. It was France and Germany that wanted to give Blix and his team more time. Britain was desperate for the second resolution specifically authorising force to give international legality to the action that was about to take place. They never got it. And war went ahead to schedule forcing the withdrawal of the inspectors for their own safety.
Since Saddam had had several deadlines. If we had got that resolution through military action would not have been necessary as Saddam's regime would have collapsed.
Here Straw is saying that had they got a resolution through that did actually authorise war (the implication is of course that previous resolutions notably 1441 had not done so), then war itself would not have been necessary. Saddam would have realised the game was up, and his regime would have collapsed.
This is ridiculous. To avoid war Saddam would have been forced to co-operate. But as he had been co-operating with the UN, that would not have meant much hardship. The end result would have been a disarmed Iraq, with Saddam still in place. But this was unacceptable to the US, who wanted Saddam out by any means. Although Britain obviously suffered a blow by not getting the second resolution, the US was not at all concerned as they never considered it necessary before launching the attack.
Straw More evidence over time of wmd. Many unresolved issues.
Again Straw tries to say the wmd is not dead. But as it's impossible to prove a negative, i.e. give definitive proof that Iraq has no wmd, the issue never can be absolutely resolved. Before the war the Americans demanded a full declaration of all Iraqi equipment. They produced 12000 pages of documents. But it couldn't prove that they didn't have wmd, and the Americans and the Brits decided to believe they did. The difference now is that it’s the American Iraq Survey Group who are saying to the American govt. Iraq is clean of wmd. You might think that would carry more weight. But Britain and America are still able to draw out the argument because no matter who says it, it is not possible to prove a negative. Saddam couldn’t and neither can the ISG. It suits the coalition to a certain extent. The longer we waste time on it, the more people forget and the real reasons for invading Iraq get lost in the mists of time.
Straw The question is - "Was decision to take military action justified?"… I believe that it was.
This was Straw's final shot. Was it justified? He believes it was. Therefore it was justified. QED.
We are asked to believe that Britain and America made an honest mistake in invading Iraq. But having mistakenly gone to war we find we do not have to apologise, because a lot of good things came out of it anyway.