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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 10:22 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Wow! Next, they'll change the coins to "In ican711nm we trust".


Over my dead body!

God willing, I'll be back alive and well Tuesday. Smile
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 10:40 am
Hmm...and just how much money did the Saudis give Al Queda? How many violations of human rights? Looks to me like Bush should invade Saudi Arabia as well. Lot of sound and fury signifying nothing on this thread.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 10:41 am
When you say "the Saudi's", are you referring to the government? Because that would be none.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 10:52 am
Saudi Arabia has no government. Right.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 10:54 am
I think McG meant no money not govt
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 10:54 am
Rolling Eyes

A monarchy is no longer a form of government?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 10:58 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I think McG meant no money not govt


Is that what LW thought I was saying? If so, disregard my last snippy remark.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:00 am
McGentrix wrote:
When you say "the Saudi's", are you referring to the government? Because that would be none.


Laughing

And you have proof the Saudis gave no money to Al Queda?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:02 am
Saudi Arabia is on the brink of implosion. It was partly fear of revolution in SA that encouraged the US to take a new oil-base (Iraq) in that region. I believe part of the plan is to partition SA, if the state cannot hold, and give bin Laden the holy bits in the west, while the US takes over the oily bits in the east.

Or is Iran next? Wherever, it aint over yet.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:06 am
Lightwizard wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
When you say "the Saudi's", are you referring to the government? Because that would be none.


Laughing

And you have proof the Saudis gave no money to Al Queda?


you started this, do you have proof they did?
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:06 am
McGentrix wrote:
Why don't the Iraqi's understand that it is not the US that blowing them up?

I read a quote the other day that basically stated that the guy thought it was the US setting off those bombs because we didn't want to leave Iraq. That it couldn't possibly be Iraqi's, because "Iraqi's don't kill other Iraqi's"

what the hell kind of reasoning is that and how do we get through to people like that?


It's the same kind of reasoning that had Americans looking for foreign terrorists after Oklahoma City: "because Americans don't kill other Americans". That's not an unusual way of thinking at all. Maybe not always rational and correct, but not unusual.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:09 am
Where's the proof that Sadaam gave money to Al Qaeda?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:11 am
Re: aw
ican711nm wrote:
According to my best intelligence (which you are of course also free to question) the following is true:
1. Saddam helped finance and equip Palestinian terrorists;
2. Osama declared Saddam an infidel prior to 9/11/2001 but did not terrorize Saddam (or any member of his government or any Iraqi citizen) as a consequence.
3. A Boeing 727 fuselage and training site was discovered in northern Iraq;
4. Saddam defrauded the UN Oil-for-Food Program and distributed $billions of Iraqi oil revenue to both secret and non-secret accounts all around the world;
5. Some members of Al Qaeda fled Afghanistan after the US entry into Afghanistan, and through Iran entered Iraq to join up with other Al Qaeda in Iraq who were there prior to the US entry into Afghanistan and Iraq;
6. More Al Qaeda went into Iraq after the US entry into Iraq;
7. Al Qaeda members met with members of Saddam's government prior to 9/11/2001;
8. Osama and Saddam hated Americans and did not willingly share intelligence with the US -- In other words, they tried to keep secrets from the US (we too late learned of when they succeeded).

With the aid of a little probabilistic inference, one can rationally infer that Saddam was secretly financing and equipping some terrorist organizations, including Al Qaeda, around the world.


Thats quite a LOT of probabilistic inference. Most of the points you mention in NO way imply the conclusion you suggest. Tick them off:

- How does the fact that Saddam financed Palestinian terrorists imply that he "was secretly financing and equipping" Al Qaeda around the world"?
- How does the assumption that al Qaeda "did not terrorize Saddam" mean Saddam must therefore have financed and equipped them?
- How does the fact that Saddam defrauded the UN Oil-for-Food Program and siphoned off the loot to his secret accounts mean that he must have been financing Al Qaeda with it (as opposed to, say, stuff his own pockets with it, like every other dictator)?
- How does the fact that "More Al Qaeda went into Iraq after the US entry into Iraq" - i.e., when Saddam wasn't even in power anymore - imply that he must have been equipping them?
- How does the fact that "Saddam did not willingly share intelligence with the US"- he kept secrets from us! - mean that he must have been financing Al-Qaeda? (Hint: most countries in the world do not willingly share intelligence with states they disagree with).

All of these points you're suggesting are just you blowing hot air - nothing that supports it except for your personal theory that it would "only be logical". Nothing probabilistic about your inferences.

That leaves you with 3), 5) and 7). This is the stuff the commission has been looking into, right? It concluded that there were contacts, but that they never led to anything. Now they had access to the intel and, consisting of both Republicans and Democrats, did not have a common cause to be pushing for regarding the matter. The Bush admin had access to the intel as well, but also a clear desire to see its own plans confirmed in it. And then there's you. I choose to trust the Commission on this, thanks.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:15 am
Lightwizard wrote:
Hmm...and just how much money did the Saudis give Al Queda? How many violations of human rights? Looks to me like Bush should invade Saudi Arabia as well. Lot of sound and fury signifying nothing on this thread.


You made THIS bold statement.

I have asked you to back up your statement. You have dodged the question.

Now you say
Quote:
Where's the proof that Sadaam gave money to Al Queda?


If this is the level of debate we are going to have, I will need to look to other threads.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:17 am
Lightwizard wrote:
Hmm...and just how much money did the Saudis give Al Queda? [..] Looks to me like Bush should invade Saudi Arabia as well.


McGentrix wrote:
When you say "the Saudi's", are you referring to the government? Because that would be none.


Lightwizard wrote:
And you have proof the Saudis gave no money to Al Queda?


McGentrix wrote:
you started this, do you have proof they did?


OK, summarising I see the Commission concluding that:

- there is no proof of Saddam's government financing al Qaeda
- there is no proof of the Saudi government financing al Qaeda
- there is proof of Saudi charities financing al Qaeda, benefiting from a lack of oversight by the Saudi government on the matter.

And of course,

- most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi

<shrugs> Regarding al-Qaeda ties, LW is right - no more reason to attack Iraq than to attack Saudi-Arabia. Or Pakistan, for that matter.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:31 am
You got it nimh -- must be the air in the Netherlands keeping the brain cells operating.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:35 am
Just heard Paul Johnson was beheaded by his captors. Crying or Very sad
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:38 am
Sick bastards.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:44 am
Brand X wrote:
Just heard Paul Johnson was beheaded by his captors. Crying or Very sad
Quote:
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) -- Al-Arabiya television reported Friday that American hostage Paul M. Johnson Jr. has been beheaded.

Reached by telephone, an official from Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya in Dubai told The Associated Press that the news of Johnson's death had been reported by the network's correspondent in the Saudi capital.

CNN reported that Al-Arabiya had a video of the killing, but the network official said there was no video.

Johnson was kidnapped last weekend by militants who threatened to kill him by Friday if the kingdom did not release its al-Qaida prisoners.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 11:46 am
Think that King Saud will put the hammer down about this? Does he have enough support in the country to eliminate these ruthless terrorists? We just happen to have an army nearby...
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