Setanta wrote:"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
[James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785.]
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
[John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.]
"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
[Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813.]
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
[Benjamin Franklin, from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728.]
YES, I AGREE! They wrote and said that and I am glad.
Fortunately for them, these fine gentlemen did not live long enough to witness what corruptions secularists have achieved in the 20th Century. Call 'em atheists or agnostics, or communists, whatever, we discovered that they too are quite capable of murdering and maiming innocent people by the millions (e.g., Stalin's millions of executions, Mao Zedong's millions of executions, Pol Pot's millions of executions, Fidel Castro's thousands of executions--he's still working on it in the 21st century).
Your quotes are not relevant to the question of whether or not: you were correct when you wrote:
Quote:we are already politically godless
Religions and philosophies of every stripe have too often been corrupted by their aderents claiming that God or the pilosopher to which they are devoted blesses their vile actions against the innocent. This includes faith-based disbelievers as well as believers in God. These facts do not establish that
all theists or
all atheists or
all agnostics are more likely to commit such vile actions. In particular, these facts do not establish that George Bush is righteous or not righteous, moral or immoral, or ethical or unethical because he believes in God.
Since you oppose Bush's actions, why not attack those actions with facts and logic instead of attacking the man with demagoguery and bigotry?
You completely missed the irony of my thank you. My understanding of German was (and is) limited to that learned (and mostly forgotten) from high school and college courses when I first attempted to read "Mein Kampf" in its original language. I cheated with my teacher's encouragement! Yes, I supplemented my reading with an English translation of "Mein Kampf". Well, shame on me! 
