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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 11:38 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
ican wrote:
Yes, by all means, as quickly as you can get to it, reread "Mein Kampf". Failure on your part to do so, would really be "disgraceful."


This assumes I've read it. Are you recommending it? And if so why?


Yes, I am recommending it. I recommend it because it is a text book on how an evil mind can convince the well intentioned, as well as the not so well intentioned, to assimilate the evil of another upon hearing lies about others repeated endlessly. These verbal and written attacks are almost totally against persons and not against the person's arguments.


Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
and to Walter

ican wrote:
Reread "Mein Kampf" and you too may perhaps see that it is loaded with exactly the same kind of discourse steve has been perveying here.


Now Ican, if you are seriously suggesting that I am a Nazi because I object to the policies of Ariel Sharon, I am seriously suggesting that you withdraw from this thread.


I am neither suggesting, declaring or thinking that you are a nazi. However, when you or anyone attack the person you are debating with instead of attacking their argument, you are implicitly applying a page out of "Mein Kampf" whether or not you ever read it. When you or anyone repeatedly state your opinion without providing what you believe to be evidence to support your opinion, you are implicitly applying another page out of "Mein Kampf". When you or anyone intend words to mean other than they are defined in a dictionary and fail to supply your own definitions, you are implicitly applying still another page out of "Mein Kampf". So please read the book to learn how evil behaves, how to protect yourself against evil, and how to avoid contributing to it.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
As I write this, I am looking at a picture of a naked man, chained to the bars of a prison cell, cowering in fear as soldiers set dogs on him. But this torture is not of some hapless Jew or Russian in WW2. Its being done now in Iraq by Americans. So think very carefully Ican before you call me a nazi.


I shall not ever call you or anyone a nazi. I shall, however, point out when I detect behavior that appears to emulate that which is described in "Mein Kampf".

The picture you described is also an implicit page out of "Mein Kampf". I'm confident the people who perpetrated that crime will pay dearly. In the case of the nazis, it took more than 4 years to make them pay. These perpetrators will pay a lot quicker, because most Americans do not and will not tolerate such behavior and are demanding and will provide quick justice. Thankfully, these damn perpetrators neither murdered or maimed that individual too.

Let's not forget that the prisoner in your picture has killed or maimed, or attempted to kill or maim, innocent people. He has behaved like the whole damn book, "Mein Kampf".
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 01:15 pm
Steve - our dogs are the most darling of animals. They wouldn't hurt anybody. Ignore the Mein Kampf crew - not one of them has read the book!
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 01:29 pm
Hitler was history's first abuser of what was basically Spamming.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 01:35 pm
Here you go boys and girls: out of Hitler's playbook to overthrow the current regime from one of us who HAS read Mein KampfL

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_kampf/mkv2ch11.html

It is always prudent to know whether one is a follower or a member of a political doctrine. I suggest careful attention be paid to those Hitler
deemed 'followers' however necessary they were to his cause.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 01:58 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:


Quote:
Neither is paired with nor as either is with or, and in those uses as conjunctions they pose usage problems of agreement.


source: The Columbia Guide to Standard American English; Cambridge Dictionary of American English. (I don't quote sources from England, since this is known there.)


Right on Walt! Nice one.

Like my new pic?

McT
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2004 02:05 pm
ican711nm wrote:

Let's not forget that the prisoner in your picture has killed or maimed, or attempted to kill or maim, innocent people. He has behaved like the whole damn book, "Mein Kampf".


This assertion is groundless and probably wrong. Most of the detainees are ordinary people, or were demonstrators, or were involved in petty thievery.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 03:30 am
Thanks for the extract from Mein Kampf, foxfyre. Whatever happened to that guy? I was really getting into the psychology of propaganda, when I thought, you know this guy could have been a great children's author...a sort of J K Rowling with moustache or Tolkein.

Meanwhile from another part of the Stormfront.org website, we learn

Quote:
The suppression of competition and the establishment of local monopolies on the dissemination of news and opinion have characterized the rise of Jewish control over America's newspapers. The resulting ability of the Jews to use the press as an unopposed instrument of Jewish policy could hardly be better illustrated than by the examples of the nation's three most prestigious and influential newspapers: the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post. These three, dominating America's financial and political capitals, are the newspapers that set the trends and the guidelines for nearly all the others. They are the ones that decide what is news and what isn't, at the national and international levels. They originate the news; the others merely copy it. And all three newspapers are in Jewish hands...

...The story is pretty much the same for other media as it is for television, radio, films, music, and newspapers. Consider, for example, newsmagazines. There are only three of any importance published in the United States: Time, Newsweek, and U.S. News & World Report.

Time, with a weekly circulation of 4.1 million, is published by a subsidiary of Time Warner Communications, the new media conglomerate formed by the 1989 merger of Time, Inc., with Warner Communications. The CEO of Time Warner Communications, as mentioned above, is Gerald Levin, a Jew.

Newsweek, as mentioned above, is published by the Washington Post Company, under the Jewess Katherine Meyer Graham. Its weekly circulation is 3.1 million...
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 05:25 am
McTag wrote:
ican711nm wrote:

Let's not forget that the prisoner in your picture has killed or maimed, or attempted to kill or maim, innocent people. He has behaved like the whole damn book, "Mein Kampf".


This assertion is groundless and probably wrong. Most of the detainees are ordinary people, or were demonstrators, or were involved in petty thievery.


Where's ican? Speak up, man, or woman.

The International Red Cross, in a statement quoted on the BBC today, say that between 60% and 90% of detainees in Iraq have done nothing to warrant detention.
No, my friend. Such terrorists as are in Iraq, Mr Bremer brought with him.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 05:31 am
Foxfire certainly will post this from stormfront next:

Quote:
Jewish media control determines the foreign policy of the United States and permits Jewish interests rather than American interests to decide questions of war and peace. Without Jewish media control, there would have been no Persian Gulf war, for example. There would have been no NATO massacre of Serb civilians. There would be no continued beating of the drums for another war against Iraq.
0 Replies
 
JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 06:38 am
Where or where is Gen. George Marshall when you need him. Senate Committe to hear from General who first reported abuse of Iraqi POWs accompanied by his Pentegon minders in 30 minutes.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 08:14 am
There have been 27 different rationales for instigating the war with Iraq, according to a University of Illinois student's thesis:

Quote:
If it seems that there have been quite a few rationales for going to war in Iraq, that's because there have been quite a few - 27, in fact, all floated between Sept. 12, 2001, and Oct. 11, 2002, according to a new study from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. All but four of the rationales originated with the administration of President George W. Bush.

The study also finds that the Bush administration switched its focus from Osama bin Laden to Saddam Hussein early on - only five months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the United States.

In addition to what it says about the shifting sands of rationales and the unsteady path to war in Iraq, what is remarkable about the 212-page study is that its author is a student.

The study, "Uncovering the Rationales for the War on Iraq: The Words of the Bush Administration, Congress and the Media from September 12, 2001, to October 11, 2002," is the senior honors thesis of Devon Largio. She and her professor, Scott Althaus, believe the study is the first of its kind.

For her analysis of all available public statements the Bush administration and selected members of Congress made pertaining to war with Iraq, Largio not only identified the rationales offered for going to war, but also established when they emerged and who promoted them. She also charted the appearance of critical keywords such as Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and Iraq to trace the administration's shift in interest from the al Qaeda leader to the Iraqi despot, and the news media's response to that shift.


Link to article

Link to thesis
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 09:09 am
nice link, PD...thanks
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JoanneDorel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 12:54 pm
Thanks PD that should be a whole thread by itself. No wonder I and others are so confused. Now I am really scared about what they will think up next to divert our attention.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 01:37 pm
National Review on Line

May 07, 2004, 8:32 a.m.
Our Weird Way of War
Our enemies know us only too well.

By Victor Davis Hanson

Quote:
The wars since September 11 have once more revealed the superiority of
Western arms. Afghanistan may be 7,000 miles away, cold, high, and full of
clans, warlords, and assorted folk who have historically enjoyed killing
foreign interlopers for blood sport, but somehow a few thousand Americans
went over there and took out the invincible Taliban in eight weeks. What
followed was not perfect, but Mr. Karzai offers far more hope than a Mullah
Omar - and without half of Afghanistan ceded over as a terrorist sanctuary
to plan another September 11.

Iraq is a long way away too. And the neighborhood is especially eerie, with
the likes of hostile Syria and Iran, and triangulators on the dole like
Jordan and Egypt. When we become ecstatic because a megalomaniac like
Khaddafi says he's taken a hiatus from nuclear acquisition, you can see that
good news over there is rare indeed.

Add in the hysteria over oil, three decades of the Baathist nightmare, and a
potpourri of terrorists, and the idea of even getting near Iraq seems crazy.
Yet we defeated Saddam in less than three weeks - in far less time than the
125- to 225-day conflict originally predicted by many Pentagon planners.

True, the year-long reconstruction has often been depressing and bloody; but
here we are a year later with some hope for a government better than Saddam
set to take power. Success, remember, need not be defined as perfection, but
simply by leaving things far better than they were.

Despite the tragedy of nearly 600 American combat dead, we did not see
thousands of American fatalities, millions of refugees, burning oil wells,
and the other assorted Dante-esque scenarios that were promised before the
war. In other words, distance, climate, weather, the foul nature of the
enemy - all those and more challenges were predictably trumped by the U.S.
military, which cannot be defeated on the field of battle by any present
force in existence.

Yet will we always see political successes follow from our military
triumphs? Hardly - and for a variety of reasons. We are confronted with the
paradox that our new military's short wars rarely inflict enough damage on
the fabric of a country to establish a sense of general defeat - or the
humiliation often necessary for a change of heart and acceptance of change.
In the messy follow-ups to these brief and militarily precise wars, it is
hard to muster patience and commitment from an American public plagued with
attention-deficit problems and busy with better things to do than give
fist-shaking Iraqis $87 billion.

Still, we must give proper credit to our enemies for our present problems in
Iraq and indeed in the so-called war against terror in general. The
fundamentalists and holdover fascists are as adroit off the conventional
battlefield as they were incompetent on it. If Middle Eastern fanatics
cannot field tens of thousands to meet the United States in battle, they can
at least offer up a few hundred spooky assassins, car bombers, and suicide
killers seeking to achieve through repulsion what they otherwise could not
through arms.

Thus while hundreds of thousands of Saddam's soldiers ran - as Egyptians,
Syrians, and Jordanians did from the Israelis in five wars - hundreds most
certainly did not once the rules of war changed to the protocols of peace.
Recently we were within hours of smashing the resistance in Fallujah once we
accepted war anew. But when the mujahedeen, Gollum-like, decided to slither
out in the open, then in terror scampered to safety, then remerged on all
fours defiant and barking when we stopped firing, our forbearance and fear
of global-televised condemnation handed them a victory they did not earn. In
short, we should have listened to Sam and strangled the creep on the spot.
But our problems are not just with the paradoxes of the fourth-dimensional,
asymmetric warfare that the United States has dealt with since the fighting
in the Philippines and knew so well in Vietnam.

No, the challenge again is that bin Laden, the al Qaedists, the Baathist
remnants, and the generic radical Islamicists of the Middle East have
mastered the knowledge of the Western mind. Indeed they know us far better
than we do ourselves. Three years ago, if one had dared to suggest that a
few terrorists could bring down the Spanish government and send their legion
scurrying out of Iraq, we would have thought it impossible.

Who would have imagined that Americans could go, in a few weeks, from the
terror of seeing two skyscrapers topple to civil discord over the diet and
clothing of war in Guantanamo, some of whom were released only to turn up to
shoot at us again on the battlefields of Afghanistan? Our grandfathers would
have dubbed Arafat a gangster, and al Sadr a psychopathic faker; many of us
in our infinite capacity for fairness and non-judgementalism deemed the one
a statesman and the other a holy man.

So our enemies realize that the struggle, lost on the battlefield, can yet
be won with images and rhetoric offered up to alter the mentality and erode
the will of an affluent, leisured and consensual West. They grasp that we
are not so much worried about being convicted of being illiberal as having
the charge even raised in the first place.

The one caveat they have learned? Do not provoke us too dramatically to
bring on an open shooting war, in which the Arab Street hysteria, empty
threats on spec, and silly fatwas nos. 1 through 1,000 mean nothing against
the U.S. Marines and Cobra gunships. Instead, their modus operandi is to
push all the way up to war - now provoking, now backing down, sometimes
threatening, sometimes weeping - the key being to see the struggle in the
long duration as a war of attrition, if you will, rather than a brief
contest of annihilation.

These rules of the strategy of exhaustion are complex, and yet have been
nearly mastered by the radicals of the Middle East. First, shock the
sensibilities of a Western society into utter despair at facing primordial
enemies from the Dark Ages. The decapitation of a Daniel Pearl; the probing
of charred bodies with sticks, whether in Iran in 1980 or Fallujah in 2004;
the promise of torturing Japanese hostages - all this is designed to make
the Western suburbanite change channels and head to the patio, mumbling
either, "How can we fight such barbarians" or - better yet - "Why would we
wish to?"

If, on occasion, an exasperated and furious West sinks to the same level -
renegade prisoner guards gratuitously humiliating or torturing naked Iraqi
prisoners on tape - all the better, as proof that the elevated pretensions
of Western decency and humanity are but a sham. A single violation of
civility, a momentary lapse in humanism and in the new world of Western
cultural relativism and moral equivalence, presto, the West loses its
carefully carved-out moral high ground as it engages not merely in much
needed self-critique and scrutiny, but reaches a feeding frenzy that evolves
to outright cultural cannibalism.

For someone in a coffee-house in Brussels the idea that Bush apologizes for
a dozen or so prison guards makes him the same as or worse than Saddam and
his sons shooting prisoners for sport - moral equivalence lapped up by the
state-controlled and censored Arab media that is largely responsible for the
collective Middle East absence of rage over the exploding, decapitating, and
incinerating of Western civilians in its midst.

Key here is our own acceptance of such moral asymmetries. Storming the
Church of the Nativity is a misdemeanor in the Western press; shelling a
minaret full of shooters is a felony. Blowing up Westerners in Saudi Arabia
or Jordan is de rigueur; asking Muslims to take off their scarves while in
French schools is a casus belli. If Afghanistan has roads, a benevolent man
as president, and al Qaedists on the run, call it a failure because Mr.
Karzai has not been able, FDR-like, to tour the countryside in a convertible
limousine waving to crowds.

Institutionalized cowardice plays a role as well in this weird way of war:
Call the few dozen dead in a West Bank town the wages of Jeningrad or the
fire-fighting in Fallujah an atrocity, but don't utter a peep about the
80,000 dead in Chechnya or the flattening of Grozny. The Russians are not
quite folk like the Israelis or Americans. They really don't care much if
you hate them; they are likely to do some pretty scary things if you press
them; they don't have too much money to shake down; they don't put you on
cable news to yell at their citizenry; and you wouldn't really wish to
emigrate there for a teaching fellowship anyway.

The moral of all this? The West can defeat the enemy on the battlefield, but
in distant and much-caricatured wars on the dirty ground it can only win
when it has leaders who can convince a fickle public into sacrificing, being
ridiculed, and putting up with inevitable short-term disappointment that is
the price of long-term security and stability - a sacrifice that in turn
will never be acknowledged as such by the very people who are its
beneficiaries both here and abroad.

How weird is our way of war! When we embrace Clintonian bombing - in Kosovo,
Serbia, or in Iraq - and kill thousands, America sleeps: few of our guys
killed, so who cares how many of theirs? Out of sight, out of mind. Yet when
we take the trouble to sort out the messy moral calculus and go in on the
ground shooting and getting shot, then suddenly the Left cries war crimes
and worse - so strong is this Western disease of wishing to be perfect
rather than merely good. Such is the self-induced burden for all those who
would be gods rather than mere mortals.

What then are we to do when choices since September 11 have always been
between bad and worse? We at least must have enough sense not to stand down
and let Iraq become Lebanonized, Talibanized, or Iranicized, even though
when all is said and done Americans will be blamed for bringing something
better to the region. And yes, we need more democracy, not less, in Iraq and
the surrounding Middle East in general.

We have to return to an audacious and entirely unpredictable combat mode;
put on a happy, aw-shucks face while annihilating utterly the Baathist
remnants and Sadr's killers; attribute this success to the new Iraqi
government and its veneer of an army for its own 'miraculous' courage;
ignore the incoming rounds of moral hypocrisy on Iraq from Europe (past
French and German oil deals and arms sales), the Arab League (silence over
Iraqi holocausts, cheating on sanctions), and the U.N. (Oil-for-Food
debacle); explain to an exasperated American people why other people hate us
for who we are rather than what we do; and apologize sincerely and
forcefully once - not gratuitously and zillions of times - for the rare
transgression.

Do all that and we can really complete this weird peace in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 02:34 pm
McTag wrote:
McTag wrote:
ican711nm wrote:

Let's not forget that the prisoner in your picture has killed or maimed, or attempted to kill or maim, innocent people. He has behaved like the whole damn book, "Mein Kampf".


This assertion is groundless and probably wrong. Most of the detainees are ordinary people, or were demonstrators, or were involved in petty thievery.


Where's ican? Speak up, man, or woman.


YO, MAN! Laughing Probably, your imagination runneth away with you.

McTag wrote:
Most of the detainees are ordinary people, or were demonstrators, or were involved in petty thievery.


I infer that your evidence is:

McTag wrote:
The International Red Cross, in a statement quoted on the BBC today, say that between 60% and 90% of detainees in Iraq have done nothing to warrant detention.


We are not discussing all the detainees in Iraq. We are discussing only those detaintees who are prisoners in one prison: Abu Graib in Bagdag in Iraq. My source alleges that the prisoners in this prison are definitely not "ordinary people, ... demonstrators, or ... petty thieves. These prisoners are almost entirely composed of those who killed or maimed, or attempted to kill or maim, innocent people.

McTag wrote:
No, my friend. Such terrorists as are in Iraq, Mr Bremer brought with him.
Rolling Eyes

In addition to the terrorists you allege were brought to Iraq by Mr. Bremer (I infer you believe the coalition's military are terrorists Crying or Very sad ), there are the Saddam Baathists, al Qaedas, Iranians, Syrians et al who killed or maimed, or attempted to kill or maim, innocent people. Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 02:34 pm
This piece by Victor Davis Hanson (I always distrust the motives of pundits with three names) highlights the hubris of the right wing, that somehow a foreign country is a place to invade, and manipulate, all the while adopting a high moral tone.

Our leaders say it it wrong to hood people and maltreat them, humiliate them and set dogs on them. But somehow it is all right to drop bombs on them. I do not understand that.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 02:36 pm
Ican, the ICRC is quoting the US MI people, who told them that upwards of 90% of the prisoners were wrongfully arrrested. So it isn't the ICRC implying anything, rather it is the US admitting to something.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 02:52 pm
ican711nm wrote:
My source alleges that the prisoners in this prison are definitely not "ordinary people, ... demonstrators, or ... petty thieves. These prisoners are almost entirely composed of those who killed or maimed, or attempted to kill or maim, innocent people.


Well, even if you accept that, which is dubious in my view, none of the treatment meted out to them can be condoned. You're not suggesting it can, are you? Mr Bush certainly isn't.

Ican, I admire your tenacity.
I have long ago given up the hope that I could convince you of anything. I take encouragement only from the fact that there is a growing volume of information by which anyone with "ears to hear", may do that.

I will leave you with a thought: if America were invaded by a force of a quarter million Iraquis, how many of the patriotic citizens of Texas would turn out to be fighters, insurgents, or "terrorists" in the eyes of the arabic press?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 03:14 pm
SHALL WE CONDEMN ALL OF :

The government of France for those hundreds of French people who knowingly, financially sponsored Saddam Hussein's murderous&maiming regime?

The government of Germany for those hundreds of Germans who knowingly, financially sponsored Saddam Hussein's murderous&maiming regime?

The government of Russia for those hundreds of Russians who knowingly, financially sponsored Saddam Hussein's murderous&maiming regime?

Islam for those hundreds of Islamics who knowingly, financially sponsored the murder of thousands of innocents in America?

Islam for those less than two dozen Islamics who knowingly, murdered thousands of innocents in Americans?

The government of the US for those less than two dozen Americans who knowingly, outrageously abused hundreds of prisoners in one prison: Abu Graib in Bagdag in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2004 03:18 pm
gee, I really wonder if there is ANY point in trying to tell you that those particular French, German and Russians were not french, german and russian government officials nor french, german or russian soldiers under direct command of presidents of respected countries.

With Islam is a bit different story, because those that are doing such things in name of Islam are probably under impression of Allah speaking directly to them. Just like one well known Christian president is under impression that God speaks to him.
0 Replies
 
 

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