Damn, pdiddie, that was a nice piece of writing! Post that all over, send it in to several many newspapers, print it out and put a few up on bulletin boards at work or down at Starbucks. yeah, my man, P!
Was it an East Indian folk tale, maybe told by Kipling, of the man who got on a tiger for a ride and he rode the tiger as the beast jumped and whirled and snarled.
"Look," he said to his fellows, "I am riding the tiger!"
His fellows replied, "Effendi, you are riding well, but it is not the getting on or the riding that you must do well, what you must do very well is the getting off."
Joe
And now a Paul Bremer statement from months preceding 9-11 comes to light...
Quote:At a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism on Feb. 26, 2001, Bremer said, ``The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh, my God, shouldn't we be organized to deal with this?'
``That's too bad. They've been given a window of opportunity with very little terrorism now, and they're not taking advantage of it.''
Bremer made the speech after he had chaired the National Commission on Terrorism, a bipartisan body formed by the Clinton administration to examine U.S. counterterrorism policies.
He has had, it ought to be noted, an epiphany of Bushian perfection since.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Bremer-Bush.html
It
has turned PD. They (that is, the ever-election-conscious administration) can be counted on now to do anything they can think of to hold onto their evangelical voting block, and to suggest naughty things about Kerry in their pursuit of the swing vote. They'll attempt to play the handover as something real, which it isn't, at least not yet and not for the forseeable future. We can count on Rove to do his Mayberry Machiavellian thing as the corner squeezes in.
But they are in deep trouble. Major papers are starting to discuss openly the liklihood/possibility of a draft (post election, of course). Israel is in turmoil now with the failure of Sharon's plan (a review of Clarke's book in the present NY Review of Books notes that Condi Rice, in her testimony on 9-11, didn't even mention Israel/Palestine...''a striking ommission" as the reviewer puts it).
Some folks will suggest you and I and others are gloating at administration failures during a time of war and looming terrorism. We aren't gloating. But we will be very happy indeed when the stupidest pack of idiots I've seen in office in my lifetime get removed. The cleanup of the messes they've made could take decades.
Thank you, Blatham, for this conclusive missive.
Would you mind looking up recent entries at the usual Cafe?
Thanks!
PD I think you have it exactly right, the worm has turned. For the first time in years I watched the Sunday morning news shows, Meet The Press, etc. And it was bad news for the Bushes.
It would seem there game is up.
You know how the srub always quote Henry V, well me thinks he never read Richard II or Henry IV parts I & II.
B and PD I think y'all deserve a gloat or two.
I'll gloat when Bush and his cronies are sent back to Texas in November. I may even throw a party!
hobitbob wrote:ican711nm wrote:hobitbob,
I'll post the more specific evidence when I get back later tonight.
Tanslation: I hope the dicussion will have progressed past this point by the time I return, so I won't have to be reminded that I'm standing on thin air.
I'm actually quite eager to see this "evidence" of yours. You have managed to avoid actually presenting it since at least last November.
Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:38 pm Post: 668824 -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transcribed from the Wall Street Journal, page A16, 4/28/2004
OIL-FOR-TERROR by Claudia Rosett
1st paragraph:
Quote:
It's looking more and more as if one of the best reasons to get rid of Saddam Hussein was that it was probably the only way to get rid of Oil-for-Food. The problem wasn't simply that this huge United Nations relief program for Iraq became a gala of graft, theft, fraud, palace-building, and global influence peddling--though all of that was quite bad enough. The picture now emerging is that under U.N. management the Oil-for-Food program, which ran from 1996-2003, served as a cover not only for Saddam's regime to cheat the Iraqi people, but to set up a vast and intricate global network of illicit finance.
3rd paragraph:
Quote:
In a world beset right now by terrorist threats--which depend on terrorist financing--it's time to acknowledge that the U.N. Oil-for-Food program was worse than simply a case of grand larceny. Given Saddam's proclivities for deceit and violence, Oil-for-Food was also a menace to security. By letting Saddam pick his own business partners and draw up his own shopping lists, by keeping the details of his contracts and accounts secret, and by then failing abjectly to supervise the process, the U.N.--through a program meant to aid the people of Iraq--enabled Saddam to line his pockets while bankrolling his pals world-wide. In return, precisely, for what? That is a question former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker might want to keep in mind as he heads up the official investigation, finally agreed to by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, into Oil-for-Food.
5th paragraph:
Quote:
Why on earth, for instance, did the U.N. authorize Saddam to sell oil to at least 65 companies in the financial lockbox of Switzerland. What was the logic behind approving as oil buyers at least 45 firms in Cyprus, seven in Panama and four in Liechtenstein? At the other extreme, would Mr. Annan care to explain why the U.N. authorized Saddam to sell oil to at least 70 companies in the petroleum-soaked United Arab Emirates?
Last two paragraphs:
Quote:
And, although full information is hard to come by, partial lists leaked from the U.N. show that in 2000-2001 alone, Saddam's regime ordered up from Al Wasel and Babel more than $139 million in construction materials, trucks, cars, and so on. Over Mr. Annan's and Mr. Sevan's protests, the U.S. and U.K. blocked some $45 million worth of those contracts; that still left the Saddam front company of Al Wasel & Babel with about $145 million of Oil-fo-Food business for that two year period alone.
Basically, Oil-for-Food was Saddam--just slightly harder to spot, swaddled as he was in that blue U.N. flag.
ican711nm wrote:
I cannot vouch for the truth of these excerpts, but I bet they are true though incomplete. I bet that Saddam used much of his U.N. Oil-for-Food program profits to sponsor world-wide terrorist organizations including but not limited to al Qaeda. Want to bet?
I speculate that a great deal of that money stolen from Oil-for-food is currently being spent on intensive propaganda to convince the people in the UK and in the US to abandon Iraq so as to permit Oil-for-Food to be reinstituted and resume sponsoring al Qaeda et al. Without that money, many actual and would-be terrorist murderers will have to do other work for a living.
_________________
I bet certainty is impossible and probability suffices to govern belief and action. Get over it!
============================================
I'll transcribe the remaining paragraphs tomorrow: 5/3/2004
============================================
Bet all you want, you have not presented evidence. I wonder if you understand what valid evedence would be? It certainly is not your wishful thinking.
hobit, Let's face it; ican knows how to read between the lines. Maybe there's some small print that he's not sharing with us. LOL
hobitbob wrote:Bet all you want, you have not presented evidence. I wonder if you understand what valid evedence would be? It certainly is not your wishful thinking.
Your claims not with standing, it most certainly is
valid evidence. The pertinent question is whether or not it is
sufficient evidence.
You have this illusion that Saddam would deny al Qaeda the money he stole from the Oil-for-Food program, while distributing it to other terrorist groups, because he didn't like OBL. That's silly. Saddam coveted and sought power any way he could manage to get it. This money and its distribution gave him such power. Ask yourself why either Saddam, Al Qaeda, or any other terrorist group would voluntarily disclose their financial sources, given the vulnerability of those sources to seizure by the US, UK, et al. Do you think they might want to hide their sources. Do you think they might even want to hide their sources from folks like you so you would agree there is no evidence that Saddam financed al Qaeda and other terrorist groups?
The rest of the transcribed article will be posted tomorrow.
Not the kind of evidence that can be proven in a court of logic.
HofT wrote:Thank you, Blatham, for this conclusive missive.
Would you mind looking up recent entries at the usual Cafe?
Thanks!
A Grecian!
God directed George to the Presidency. God directed me to correct His earlier error.
Skipping, graceful as an arthritic wildebeast, over to the cafe...where I expect to find at least two people unhappy with my drinking elsewhere...
cicerone imposter wrote:Not the kind of evidence that can be proven in a court of logic.

True, it is
not sufficient evidence to justify anything more than a tentative conclusion (e.g., a judgment, a bet). It is nonetheless
valid evidence.
Reference to administration claims of not having any evidence of X is not evidence that X is not true, nor is it evidence that X is true. Such references are simply not evidence.
When one alleges that the administration is comprised of fools and/or frauds and yet one claims that administration allegations are evidence, one is emulating those which one accuses of being fools and/or a frauds. If the administration are all truly fools and/or frauds, then such allegations as the administration makes cannot be seriously considered to be valid evidence.
Maureen Dowd type vitriolic statements and articles do not constitute valid evidence regarding the topic of this forum either. They constitute evidence only of the unreliability of Ms. Dowd and her fellow travelers as valid evidentiary sources.
So, if it's a choice between Dowd or you, I guess I'll stick with Dowd.
HERE IS THE ENTIRE ARTICLE
Transcribed from the Wall Street Journal, page A16, 4/28/2004
OIL-FOR-TERROR by Claudia Rosett
[boldface added]
Quote:It's looking more and more as if one of the best reasons to get rid of Saddam Hussein was that it was probably the only way to get rid of Oil-for-Food. The problem wasn't simply that this huge United Nations relief program for Iraq became a gala of graft, theft, fraud, palace-building, and global influence peddling--though all of that was quite bad enough. The picture now emerging is that under U.N. management the Oil-for-Food program, which ran from 1996-2003, served as a cover not only for Saddam's regime to cheat the Iraqi people, but to set up a vast and intricate global network of illicit finance.
And although much debate has focused on the list published this past January in the Iraqi newspaper Al Mada--cataloguing some 270 individuals and entities world-wide alleged to have received illicit oil voucers worth millions from Saddam--the Al Mada list may be the least of it (apart from the last name of the executive director of the Oil-for-Food program himself, Benon Sevan). Dwarfing the Al Mada list for size, scope and menace was the U.N.-piloted mothership, the entire $11 billion U.N. Oil-for-Food Program. Supplied by Iraq's oil wells, the sums involved in Oil-for-Food transactions were so enormous that even routine rounding errors of a few hundred million here or there easily rivaled, for example, the $300 million or so family money believed to have given Osama bin Laden his terrorist start.
In a world beset right now by terrorist threats--which depend on terrorist financing--it's time to acknowledge that the U.N. Oil-for-Food program was worse than simply a case of grand larceny. Given Saddam's proclivities for deceit and violence, Oil-for-Food was also a menace to security. By letting Saddam pick his own business partners and draw up his own shopping lists, by keeping the details of his contracts and accounts secret, and by then failing abjectly to supervise the process, the U.N.--through a program meant to aid the people of Iraq--enabled Saddam to line his pockets while bankrolling his pals world-wide. In return, precisely, for what? That is a question former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker might want to keep in mind as he heads up the official investigation, finally agreed to by U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan, into Oil-for-Food.
In tallying various leaked lists, disturbing leads and appalling expos^es to date, what becomes ever more clear is that Oil-for-Food quickly became a global maze of middlemen, shell companies, fronts and shadowy connections, all blessed by the U.N. From this labyrinth via kickbacks on underpriced oil and overpriced goods, Saddam extracted, by conservative estimates of the General Accounting Office, at least $4.4 billion in graft, plus an additional $5.7 billion on oil smuggled out of Iraq. Meanwhile, Mr. Anan's Secretariat shrugged and rang up $1.4 billion in Iraqi oil commissions for supervising the program. Worse, the GAO notes that anywhere from $10 billion to as much as $40 billion may have been socked away in secret by Saddam's regime. The assumption so far has been that most of the illicit money flowed back to Saddam in the form of fancy goods and illicit arms.
But no one really knows right now just how much of those billions went where--or what portion of that kickback cash Saddam might have forwarded to whatever he deemed a worthy cause. A look at one of the secret U.N. lists of clients authorized by the U.N. to buy from Saddam is not reassuring. It includes more than 1,000 companies, scattered from Liberia to South Africa to oil-rich Russia. And though the U.N. was supposed to ensure that oil was sold to end-users at market price--thus minimizing the graft potential for Saddam and maximizing the funds for relief--there is an extraordinary confetti of clients in locations known less for their oil consumption than for their shell companies and financial secrecy.
Why on earth, for instance, did the U.N. authorize Saddam to sell oil to at least 65 companies in the financial lockbox of Switzerland. What was the logic behind approving as oil buyers at least 45 firms in Cyprus, seven in Panama and four in Liechtenstein? At the other extreme, would Mr. Annan care to explain why the U.N. authorized Saddam to sell oil to at least 70 companies in the petroleum-soaked United Arab Emirates?
In Oil-for-Food, "Every contract tells a story," says John Fawcett. a financial investigator with the New York law firm of Kreindler & Kreindler LLP, which has sued the financial sponsors of Sept. 11 on behalf of the victims and their families. In an interview, Mr. Fawcett and his colleague, Christine Negroni, run down the lists of Oil-for-Food authorized buyers and relief suppliers, pointing out likely terrorist connections. One authorized oil buyer, they note, was a remnant of the defunct global criminal bank, BCCI. Another was close to the Taliban while Osama bin Laden was on the rise in Afghanistan; a third was linked to a bank in the Bahammas involved in al Qaeda's financial network; a fourth had a close connection to one of Saddam's would-be nuclear-bomb makers.
U.N. secrecy--in deference to the privacy of Saddam and his former clientele--makes it extremely difficult to confirm the many whiffs of sleazy and sinister dealings in these lists. But for an example of how dirty Oil-for-Food could get, take the case of one of Saddam's U.N.-authorized relief suppliers, a company called Al Wasel & Babel General Trading LLC, set up in Dubai, in 1999. The same Al Wasel & Babel was designated by Treasury earlier this month as a front company set up by senior officials of Saddam's to serve as foreign seller of goods to Saddam's regime, through Oil-for-Food (while trying to procure for Iraq a surface-to-air-missile system).
And, although full information is hard to come by, partial lists leaked from the U.N. show that in 2000-2001 alone, Saddam's regime ordered up from Al Wasel and Babel more than $190 million in construction materials, trucks, cars, and so on. Over Mr. Annan's and Mr. Sevan's protests, the U.S. and U.K. blocked some $45 million worth of those contracts; that still left the Saddam front company of Al Wasel & Babel with about $145 million of Oil-for-Food business for that two year period alone.
Basically, Oil-for-Food was Saddam--just slightly harder to spot, swaddled as he was in that blue U.N. flag.
Ms. Rosett is a fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and the Hudson Institute. Her column appears in [The Wall Street Journal] here and in The Wall Street Journal Europe on alternate Wednesdays.
Thank you for Ms. Rosett's post you quote, ICAN
Did it occur to either of you to contact Mr. George Tenet with your information about Saddam ever having helped Al Qaeda?
If not, why not?
AGAIN, THE FIVE REASONS WHY I POSTED THE 1998 ARTICLE I COPIED FROM THE BRITANNICA SITE
First, I wanted to you to read a different analysis than you appeared to have read to date.
Second, I wanted you to realize that the fear of the potential threat of Saddam's State to the welfare of the human race was pervasive long before Bush began to run for the presidency, let alone before Bush was inaugurated.
Third, I wanted you to understand that this fear of Saddam's State existed widely both in and outside the US.
Fourth, the pervasive consensus (e.g., in the middle east, in Europe, in the UN, and in the US), right up to the start of the Bush administration, was that replacing Saddam's State with a functioning republic was going to be extremely difficult and far more dangerous than attempting to contain Saddam's State.
Fifth, this pervasive consensus persisted after Bush was inaugurated right up to 9/11/2001 even though Bush et al began to question this consensus again prior to 9/11/2001.
WHAT I THINK
I think it legitimate to continually question any policy (e.g., containment, regime change) when there is a broad consensus that the regime to be contained or changed is extremely dangerous and a potential threat to the welfare of the human race.
I think that trying to contain Saddam's sponsorship of terrorist groups (e.g., distribution of money, weapons and ordinance) was no more likely than trying to contain a cancer infecting a human. Cancer must be exterminated not contained if the infected person is to survive for a normal lifetime. Unfortunately, it is apparently inevitable that curing a cancer will exterminate healthy cells as well as cancerous ones.
Terrorism is a cultural cancer infecting the human race and may not be contained. It can only be ended by extermination. However, unfortunately, that extermination will cost the lives of innocent humans as well as guilty humans.
RECTIFICATION OF SERIOUS MISTAKES
The Bush Administration has made numerous mistakes. This administration appears to be experimenting with different alternative tactics without clear understanding of which tactics will work or not work. But based on the posted article, previous administrations behaved the same way. That's why I repeatedly ask of the members of this forum: What do you think will work now; What do you think ought to be done now?
If you think you possess such knowledge, then you owe it to your country and to the human race to publicize such knowledge.
HofT wrote:Thank you for Ms. Rosett's post you quote, ICAN
Did it occur to either of you to contact Mr. George Tenet with your information about Saddam ever having helped Al Qaeda?
I cannot speak for Ms. Rosett.
It did not occur to me.
Now, reflecting on it, I bet that Tenet knows of Rosett's articles on this subject 4/21/2004 and 4/28/2004. Surely Mr. Tenet and others of the current administration were earlier knowledgeable of the U.N. Oil-for-Food scam before Rosett: The GAO and Treasury are both reported in the article to have known about it. So why have they not disclosed there is
some evidence of a Saddam Taliban and/or AQ joint program? My guess is they want to wait until they get Paul Volcker's findings to determine if his findings support their own.
Extermination is a wonderful idea, ICAN, especially if there are volunteers like Arthur Koestler.
Do YOU volunteer?
This is a simple question answerable by yes or no.
cicerone imposter wrote:I'll gloat when Bush and his cronies are sent back to Texas in November. I may even throw a party!
Just be sure you stock up on tissues for all the weeping. :wink:
HofT wrote:Extermination is a wonderful idea, ICAN, especially if there are volunteers like Arthur Koestler. Do YOU volunteer? This is a simple question answerable by yes or no.
Volunteer for what? To exterminate or to be exterminated?
....................
Two other questions have occurred to me:
If you meant
volunteer to exterminate, then
exterminate whom or what?
If you meant
volunteer to be exterminated, then
exterminated by whom or what?