Non-Christian - not my brother

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

Suppose Bentley said: "I belong to an awesome club, and everyone else who belongs to the club is my fellow club member, and if you're not a member of my awesome club, then you're not a fellow club member, but I wish you were, 'cuz it's an awesome club." Would he be accused of marginalizing or insulting non-club members? Should non-club members be saying: "I'm not a member of his club and I don't want to be, but it was awfully rude of him to say that I'm not a fellow club member."

Well, Bentley thinks he does belong to an awesome club. It's called "Christianity." And he calls his fellow club members "brothers and sisters." And if you're not a member of the club, you're not one of his brothers or sisters. It's not a value judgment, it's not an insult, it's not an act of discrimination against those who are not members of his club. It's just a fact. You either are or you aren't a member of his club.

So well put!

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

I believe he is referring to God as being his heavenly father. I don't believe he is referring to the flesh when he is talking about brothers and sisters (in Christ).

I guess it's a border case, and border cases are always messy. Dexter Avenue Baptist church is an active church as well as one of the National Park Service's National Historic Landmarks. Martin Luther King was a pastor in that church as well as the namesake of a federal holiday. Presumably the only reason they invited Bentley to preach there was that he had just been inaugurated as Alabama's governor. And no doubt the invitation was convenient for him, for Dexter Avenue Baptist Church sits closer than all other Montgomery churches to the Alabama State Capitol. No doubt the governor could have worked harder to avoid such a messy entanglement between church business and state business.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

False analogy. Religions assert that they are keepers of revealed truth, and that all other doctrines are false. It's not the same as being the member of a club.

You say that I made a false analogy and then complain that "it's not the same thing." Of course it's not the same thing -- it's an analogy.

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@Thomas,

From a church standpoint, it was an appropriate statement. But from a political one, it was rather inappropriate. Guess that's one of the reasons we shouldn't mix church and state.

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@joefromchicago,

And it's false because being the member of a club is not analogous to being an adherent of a religion. Quibbling about words is certainly your style, but it is unconvincing.

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@Setanta,

What is a religion but a type of club?

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

InfraBlue wrote:
An affirmation of faith is different from telling people who do not confess one's religion that one wants them to convert.

Well, first of all, I don't think the governor said anything about converting anybody. But even if he did, why can't that be an affirmation of faith? Some religions view proselytizing to be an affirmative duty.

InfraBlue wrote:
That is an affront to Jews and Hindus and atheists and others of his constituency who don't, and don't care to, profess his religion. He is proselytizing.

Again, so what? Is a governor not permitted to express his religious beliefs if he belongs to a proselytizing kind of religion? Is he only permitted to say nice things about people who aren't members of his religion, even if his religion holds that non-members are damned to perdition?

InfraBlue wrote:
I don't think a governor should be proselytizing.

Why not?

Granted, proselytizing can be an affirmation of faith, however, where Bentley crosses the line is in the separation of church and state in actively engaging in proselytizing while in the capacity of a governor.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

What is a religion but a type of club?

It's also an ideology about the fundamental nature of the world. If you belong to the Chicago Country Club and I belong to a New Jersey country club, you don't have to believe I'm fundamentally wrong for playing golf in New Jersey. But if you're a Catholic and I am a Hindu, you have to believe I'm fundamentally wrong for believing in Vishnu and reincarnation.

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@Thomas,

So what if someone thinks someone is wrong? None of us are perfect and have all the answers. Sheesh if I got all offended everytime someone thought I was wrong I'd be in a mental hospital.

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@Arella Mae,

Joe had asked how a religion is not just another kind of club. This was my answer.

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@Thomas,

I understand. It just seems to me so many people get so darned irked if someone may think they are wrong about something. I really don't understand it. What you or anyone else believes about me or my beliefs doesn't have a bearing on those beliefs and I'm pretty sure what I believe has no bearing on yours. I really think this is getting to be such an intolerant world. I hate to see that.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Granted, proselytizing can be an affirmation of faith, however, where Bentley crosses the line is in the separation of church and state in actively engaging in proselytizing while in the capacity of a governor.

As I understand it, he was speaking at the church on his own time. He wasn't expending state funds or otherwise involving the state in what he was doing. That's not a violation of the separation of church and state.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

It's also an ideology about the fundamental nature of the world. If you belong to the Chicago Country Club and I belong to a New Jersey country club, you don't have to believe I'm fundamentally wrong for playing golf in New Jersey. But if you're a Catholic and I am a Hindu, you have to believe I'm fundamentally wrong for believing in Vishnu and reincarnation.

Yes, and the Girl Scouts sell cookies.

There are plenty of differences between clubs. Many of them involve hats. A birdwatchers club has a bunch of like-minded people who watch birds. A Baptist club has a bunch of like-minded people who think that all non-Baptists are going to hell. That's a difference in degree, not in kind.

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@Arella Mae,

Intolerance has nothing to do with it. If two people disagree on an important question about the world, they can't both be right. So if they care about the truth of the matter, it's worth their while to find out who is wrong---by controversial argument if necessary. For example, I think Joefromchicago is wrong about a lot of things, yet I'm perfectly tolerant of him and his erroneous ways. (I think the same is true vice versa.)

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

That's a difference in degree, not in kind.

That would be one of those questions on which you are wrong.

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@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Granted, proselytizing can be an affirmation of faith, however, where Bentley crosses the line is in the separation of church and state in actively engaging in proselytizing while in the capacity of a governor.

As I understand it, he was speaking at the church on his own time. He wasn't expending state funds or otherwise involving the state in what he was doing. That's not a violation of the separation of church and state.

He went directly from his inaguration ceremony to the church which was having a service honoring Martin Luther King Jr. and he gave a proselytizing speech.

I don't think individuals who hold elected offices have their own time.

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@Arella Mae,

Oh really? prove me wrong.

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@PUNKEY,

PUNKEY wrote:

Like I said - he divided the room up into the "saved" and "unsaved" and spoke differently to each side, in fact, very condescending to the "unsaved..

This is the new "discrimination" - forget being Black or handicapped . If you aren't "saved" then you are not one of "us." Poor you, we really do want you to be "saved.". Then you would be OK.

- Very dangerous and needs to be watched.

Then watch him closely. You won't be alone.

In the meantime do you think it is reasonable to assume that he intends, as Guv, to discriminate between Christians and non-Christians?

This is such a tempest in a teapot; manufactured by folks who just love to find fault with any elected official who expresses his or her faith.

Given that we have never even been close to living under a theocracy, and that there is no one in the serious public sphere who is calling for a theocracy why do you folks feel the need to create bogeymen against whom you can rave?

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Or in other words, I agree with joefromchicago---always an embarrassing situation for both of us.

And it must be a horrifying situation when you both agree with me.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

What is a religion but a type of club?

Well, it certainly amounts to little more than a club for many, many of the "faithful," but clearly it is much more.

1 Reply

Non-Christian - not my brother

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