Non-Christian - not my brother

Therefore if you say black is false, and white is truth, then when you claim things are more gray you are really saying things are half truths.

I think you heard it or read it somewhere once before, thought it was good and used it without even understanding it.

that is incorrect

Heaven is not necessarily a place you go to regardless of your actions here. So if it exists it should be seen as a goal, gained from a worthy existence, not an excuse for bad bahavior here and now. Now, as a buddhist I have a different concept. One of reincarnation and karma. Karma follows you into the next existence and in fact determines your next existence. With enough bad karma you may return as a lower life form, which is not very enjoyable.

IRFRANK wrote:

Heaven is not necessarily a place you go to regardless of your actions here. So if it exists it should be seen as a goal, gained from a worthy existence, not an excuse for bad bahavior here and now. Now, as a buddhist I have a different concept. One of reincarnation and karma. Karma follows you into the next existence and in fact determines your next existence. With enough bad karma you may return as a lower life form, which is not very enjoyable.

The thing you skipped over is the fact that for ever person who believes in the concept of heaven being true, their description of such a place will vary so much that it points out that the concept itself is nothing but a vague superstition. There will be many who would disagree with your description of heaven in terms of reincarnation or undergoing the effect of your actions.

Enlightenment is not a heaven. The Buddha refers to it as a "blowing out" which is always misinterpreted enlightenment or nirvana with some kind of blissful heaven which it's not. Nirvana is total non existence. But here is the clincher. The Buddha never said that you live multiple lives, this was a concept that got inserted later. The reason he never said such a thing is because it would give rise to an ego identity that is substantial and undergoes a live and death and a rebirth. He pointed out that such an identity does not exist in the first place, but people refuse to accept that and they simply can not cope with that fact. So they invent these other ideas into Buddhism to ease their minds.

There is no rebirth, there is no multiple lives, and there is no reincarnation. Nirvana is extinction of mind, which will happen when you die. When you come to this understanding and face it head on it will liberate you from your self. Which is the whole point of Buddhism. Once you are liberated from yourself and you understand your impermanence you wont go about chasing after fleeting things in this life and creating problems for others. Buddhism isn't some mystical thing, it is just facing reality right here, right now but very few people want to undertake that because they like to live in a fantasy world where they will exist for ever and always be a product of their minds.

But is the source of life a product of your mind? Or is your mind the product of the source of life? And if there be no heaven then how can the earth be the source of life? For without the instruction of life therein, there is no life in the earth.

The fact that the earth supports life is just a current condition, however it won't always be conditional for life. So what is so magical about it? The earth came first, not life, and life doesn't come from some other dimension and exists independent upon the earth. When the earth changes so will life, or else it will cease being life.

Our minds are a byproduct of the function of our brains. It is nothing more substantial than that despite how people desperately need it to be otherwise. Those who come to terms with the reality of their impermanence will become liberated. Those who refuse to can escape anything and are constantly in struggle for peace of mind but they will never find it in fantasies of heaven realms, gods or prayers.

There is no rebirth, there is no multiple lives, and there is no reincarnation. Nirvana is extinction of mind, which will happen when you die. When you come to this understanding and face it head on it will liberate you from your self. Which is the whole point of Buddhism. Once you are liberated from yourself and you understand your impermanence you wont go about chasing after fleeting things in this life and creating problems for others. Buddhism isn't some mystical thing, it is just facing reality right here, right now but very few people want to undertake that because they like to live in a fantasy world where they will exist for ever and always be a product of their minds.

When the conditions are right then life will arise

Just so it is understood though, because I haven’t posted anything on this thread, as to if there be a heaven or not. I believe there is a Kingdom of Heaven/ Kingdom of God a Living God/Creator and His Son is Jesus Christ.

But what I wanted to ask you is:
Unless you have hit the lotto or inherited wealth, where as you would not need for means, we are all born into need and want. I don’t understand what you are liberated from?

You've made some strong statements there, which are your beliefs. There are several types of Buddhism, each have different answers for the life and death questions.

Are you stipulating that life is a self arising phenomena? just for clarification.

When the conditions are right then life will arise

Some try to claim that it is obvious which is which but actually it's not so easy. Then others have told me, well even if there are aspects of the teachings that were added and they work just as well as the original teachings, then what's so bad about them? That is my problem, that these additional teachings don't work, they are just another hindrance that was unnecessary and the only reason they are there is to try an appeal to certain groups of people for monetary gain and control.

dpmartin wrote:

Just so it is understood though, because I haven’t posted anything on this thread, as to if there be a heaven or not. I believe there is a Kingdom of Heaven/ Kingdom of God a Living God/Creator and His Son is Jesus Christ.

Well how is it you come to that conclusion? I mean were you told about it or did you come to the conclusion all on your own without any scripture telling you? How is it you know this?

dpmartin wrote:

But what I wanted to ask you is:
Unless you have hit the lotto or inherited wealth, where as you would not need for means, we are all born into need and want. I don’t understand what you are liberated from?

Well the way in which you ask me, reveals that you don't quite understand what I mean by liberated. It isn't something that is won or strive for. It is just a natural result of your change in how you view the self and the world. You can't win liberation or gain it by trying to obtain it, because that is actually what everyone tries to do already and it fails time and time again to come about. The only way it happens is by embracing the fact that you are impermanent and not a substantial entity.

You can't just have a vague notion of what that is, you have to delve deeply into what that means and come out the other side completely detached from any notion of self. Many people are not capable of doing that because the bond towards the self is incredibly strong they can't seem to get lose from it. They morn the loss of their self and turn away from the reality because it is too much for them to accept. This is why they make up the concept of heavens, which is to appeal to the ego and attempt to comfort.

Well, the Truth is that the Word of God is substantiated in the reality of one’s Life lived.

How ?

Which the scriptures are a documentation of those who have experienced the same.


The scriptures are simply stories pass down generations. Do they reinforce your beliefs or are your beliefs founded on the scriptures? The same question is posed again, would you come up with the same explanations without the scriptures?


If some one tells you to do this, and he will do that, and you agree, and it is fulfilled, then the word of he who told you to do this is substantiated in the reality of your life. Hence you learn to trust the word of he who told you to do this. This is what is the experienced by the those who wrote the documentation know as scripture. Affirming to those who experience the same in what ever proportion in their lives it is experienced.

You are simply saying you trust those who told the truth before. That does not imply proof or not. It may justify faith, which is fine, but does not provide any proof.

Your point that Salvation, or deliverance from the permanence of death, is ego driven, is something I don’t understand. It would have to be freely given, for as you can see, no man can do it of his own power. Therefore no one can deliver himself from death.

I don't believe anyone said there is deliverance from death. In fact, impermanence must be accepted.

Though I can understand if one sees no trophy or reward, that would be of value, there would be no sense in running a race to win nothing, or something not valued. But I don’t see how eternal life is not valued. If it’s given to you to be, why is that a detriment to well being? Anyone can say anything is a false hope, if their own expectations and desires are not fulfilled. But that does not prove that all hope is without merit.

The constant striving for well being is the distraction from the happiness we already possess. Proving all hope is without merit is the trap of proving a negative. It's like asking one to prove there is no God. It's not possible. The task is to prove there is hope, or a God. Hope is a state of mind in the future. These are not possibly achieved. We only have our current state of mind. Learning to accept our position, our impermanance, and to cherish our current state of being alive as the only possible thing that matters is the point of enlightenment. All else is a distraction.