Non-Christian - not my brother

@JPB,

Quote:

Wow. You are really stuck on logical truth, aren't you? Sure -- you could believe that the sun wouldn't rise tomorrow and spend the rest of your day planning accordingly. Then, if the sun didn't rise tomorrow you would be all ready. If it did, then... well, you might have spent your time today in more pleasurable endeavors. Folks who believe in a god and an afterlife live their lives as if that is true and do those things they think will be important in that afterlife. If, when the time comes, they were right then they're all set. If they were wrong then they could have been spending their time in other pursuits. Today planning on tomorrow's sunrise, or life planning on an afterlife. It's all the same thing.

Yeah that's all fine and good if they actually behaved in that way, but they don't. Many of them impose themselves onto society and want to impose their set of guidelines for everyone else to follow. I probably wouldn't have any problem with it if they were as personalized as you portray but they seldom ever are. On top of that some even go even more extreme to create conflict for others because they refuse to accept those guidelines. Even to the point of murdering them for it. That is when it has become a thorn on humanity and should be removed. It's time to remove the thorn so humanity can heal and actually progress beyond childish superstitions and face reality head on.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

I don't KNOW that they don't.

That is not what I asked you. I asked if you believe that they exist in the same sense as african elephants. What is the point in avoiding the question by answering it in a completely different way?

Sure we can't really know with any absolutely certainty about anything. But it is completely absurd to say that then because absolutely nothing can be known. But that is not what I asked because we both know what you will answer which is why you answered in the way that you did. Oh look I did some assuming again, wow I should get out of the habit of pointing out reality.

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@Krumple,

Ok -- but that's your opinion. You can't prove that the mystics haven't experienced an insight into something that there's no language to explain any more than I can prove that they have and it's our inability to understand what they're trying to say. We take the teachings and turn them into religions which, in my mind, is where the real damage is done.

Your opinion that the mystics are trying to pull one over on the masses and my opinion that the masses (myself included) are simply too dumb to get it are both as true as they are false, depending on one's perspective.

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@Krumple,

I believe that's a function of religion, not faith.

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@Rockhead,

Rockhead wrote:

you seem kinda dense.

are you a philosopher, by chance?

well said

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

I asked if you believe that they exist in the same sense as african elephants. What is the point in avoiding the question by answering it in a completely different way?

because I think that what you or I or anyone believes doesn't really matter. What we know is more important - and much more limited. Of course I could be wrong about that.

I don't see things as simply as you appear to. I see shades of grey more than I see black and white.

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@JPB,

Quote:

Your opinion that the mystics are trying to pull one over on the masses and my opinion that the masses (myself included) are simply to dumb to get it are both as true as they are false, depending on one's perspective.

Dumb? perhaps but I am not immune to it, and I wouldn't claim that I am immune to it. I would be more than happy to accept the existence of a god, if it were true. However, I still can not see the fascination with the concept of heaven though. I doubt anyone who actually believes in the concept of heave has actually spent any time pondering what heaven would really mean. There is pretty much nothing that I would want to do that would keep me entertained for eternity. I've thought it over and I guess that around about one thousand years I would be begging for non existence.

In my opinion the concept of heaven cheapens this existence. It makes people who believe in it, over shadow this life, this planet. They only want to look forward to that next existence. They don't really care what happens here because this is temporary where as the other is the one they really want. That is a dangerous mentality and it fuels people to do things that they wouldn't other wise probably do. Kill for the sake of redeeming something they are promised as a reward. Even if they are not that extreme they still may hold to values that devalue this life, others who are alive and the planet that we exist on. If the planet is going to be destroyed anyways, whats the use in caring about it? "God will remake it anyways."

I doubt anyone would really want to exist for ever. Those who say they would have probably never really deeply thought it over. If it were some imagination land where what ever you thought of, it would happen then chaos would quickly arise. Or wouldn't you eventually figure it out? Always getting what you want without any sort of conflict? It would get boring to always be the winner without any effort. But like I said, those who believe in such concepts have never really explored it other than to say that they believe in it.

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@Krumple,

Again, it's religion that promises those things.

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

because I think that what you or I or anyone believes doesn't really matter. What we know is more important -

That is impossible. We can never really know anything with any certainty. So what you actually believe to be important is not possible.

Quote:

I don't see things as simply as you appear to. I see shades of grey more than I see black and white.

Yeah but your assumption here is that there are half truths and that people who have beliefs can be truth to them and be true and false in reality. But I have never seen anything in reality that actually supports that truth. Sure there are people who believes gods exist, but where is this existence? Still unknown. So where is your importance in that then? If its more important to know or have knowledge of something then what use is believing in something that you have no knowledge of? So you didn't solve any problems by changing your position from beliefs to knowing.

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@JPB,

Quote:

Again, it's religion that promises those things.

It doesn't matter, the fact that it is the catalyst for such thoughts that makes it the problem to begin with. Regardless of where the concepts come from there is still and underline reality that verifies if what they believe is truth or not.

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@Krumple,

there is nothing you can say that i can't say with 100% certainty is absolutely true

try it, and see

by the by, we raise pink flying elephants, i'd post a picture of one, but i won't give you the satisfaction

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@Krumple,

But my point is that you don't know what that reality is any more than I (or they) do.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Quote:
Wow. You are really stuck on logical truth, aren't you? Sure -- you could believe that the sun wouldn't rise tomorrow and spend the rest of your day planning accordingly. Then, if the sun didn't rise tomorrow you would be all ready. If it did, then... well, you might have spent your time today in more pleasurable endeavors. Folks who believe in a god and an afterlife live their lives as if that is true and do those things they think will be important in that afterlife. If, when the time comes, they were right then they're all set. If they were wrong then they could have been spending their time in other pursuits. Today planning on tomorrow's sunrise, or life planning on an afterlife. It's all the same thing.

Yeah that's all fine and good if they actually behaved in that way, but they don't. Many of them impose themselves onto society and want to impose their set of guidelines for everyone else to follow. I probably wouldn't have any problem with it if they were as personalized as you portray but they seldom ever are. On top of that some even go even more extreme to create conflict for others because they refuse to accept those guidelines. Even to the point of murdering them for it. That is when it has become a thorn on humanity and should be removed. It's time to remove the thorn so humanity can heal and actually progress beyond childish superstitions and face reality head on.

Now that really is hypocritical. It was YOU that was imposing your beliefs to begin with.

You are one that screams for tolerance but is intolerant. YOU do not get to decide what thorns need to be removed from society. You are such a hypocrite. Saying others think they are superior because of their beliefs but here you are, thinking you are soooooooooooooooo superior you should remove the thorn from society? I really do feel sorry for you.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

So you didn't solve any problems by changing your position from beliefs to knowing.

oh dear. my position didn't change.

I still don't KNOW that there are no flying pink elephants - and I didn't tell you what I believe about flying pink elephants.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Quote:

I don't see things as simply as you appear to. I see shades of grey more than I see black and white.

Yeah but your assumption here is that there are half truths

shades of grey are not "half truths", so no, my assumption is not that there are half truths

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@ehBeth,

Quote:

shades of grey are not "half truths", so no, my assumption is not that there are half truths

Do you even understand what you say then? What is gray? If you say that you don't believe things to be black or white but instead gray really what you are saying is that they are combination which is what gray is, it is a combination of both black and white together. Therefore if you say black is false, and white is truth, then when you claim things are more gray you are really saying things are half truths.

I can't believe I had to explain to you, your own statement which you denied. Almost face palming moment. Maybe I should be asking you, what do you mean when you say that things appear to you more in terms of shades of gray then because I think you have a completely different understanding of what that sentence actually says. Or where that line of reasoning actually comes from. I think you heard it or read it somewhere once before, thought it was good and used it without even understanding it.

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@Arella Mae,

Quote:

Now that really is hypocritical. It was YOU that was imposing your beliefs to begin with.

You are one that screams for tolerance but is intolerant. YOU do not get to decide what thorns need to be removed from society. You are such a hypocrite. Saying others think they are superior because of their beliefs but here you are, thinking you are soooooooooooooooo superior you should remove the thorn from society? I really do feel sorry for you.

I guess you would say that about a doctor making a diagnosis too right? That the doctor is in no way in any position to make an assertion to what the problem is? Sure I could be wrong, but yet you can't even see that you are making an assumption that I am already wrong. In other words what you just claimed I did, you just did the exact same thing without even realizing it. How is it that you have determined that I am wrong in my statement? How is it that you can point it out? Do you know something that I don't know or do you personally believe that things are different? That you hold the truth and I am mistaken?

You can try to appeal to emotion to say you feel sorry for me. Because you have already decided that you are right, I am wrong, and that I need pity. How is it you can claim I am being a hypocrite when you just did the same thing?

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@Krumple,

Do you really read what anyone posts to you? I never said you were wrong in your beliefs. I said I felt it was inappropriate for you to voice what you did on that other thread. I believe you have a right to whatever it is you believe just as I have the right to whatever it is I believe.

I really wish you'd stop putting things into my posts that are not there. I do feel sorry for you if you cannot understand how your expressing what you did AT THE TIME you did was not really appropriate IMO and in the opinion of others.

You are the one claiming to be right here. I'm not the one claiming what or who should be removed from society. I think you just like to argue and I don't.

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For those of you who criticized Gov. Bentley for making his remarks: Glenn Beck agrees with you.

Given this new information, you may want to reevaluate your previous positions.

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The fact that Beck deplores the remarks is not reason to cease to deplore them one's self. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. However, it appears from the linked article that Beck deplores them as being not properly"christian," rather than because they are exlusionary. I'm not sure that i would endorse Beck's reasoning. Whether or not, just because Beck has the good sense (for once) to take a rational position shouldn't alter the point of view of those who usually do not agree with him.

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Non-Christian - not my brother

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