Non-Christian - not my brother

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Or in other words, I agree with joefromchicago---always an embarrassing situation for both of us.

Indeed. Let us never speak of it again.

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@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

I think it was the "You are NOT my brother." part that was the problem.

How can it be a problem when he didn't say it? He didn't say you are not his brother if you don't believe in Jesus as your savior; he said he wants you to be. Whether you want that too is up to you.

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@joefromchicago,

Yes, i know you don't . . . however, although not wishing to shock and dismay you, i am pointing out that you are probably wrong.

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@Thomas,

Understood (as to where you are coming from). Politicians have an unusual responsibility as public officials for their public utterances, with which you may or may not agree.

Back to the issue, I agree with Setanta. This Gov's nonsense utterances would NOT be of note had he not been a public official. Blame the media partially, if you will.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

It takes severe cultural ignorance about Christianity to construe that as "if you don't believe in Christ, you're not my brother."

there are some people who call themselves Christians you need to tell this to

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I think some of you are equating "brother or sister in Christ" to "brother or sister in humanity". It's not the same thing.

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@Thomas,

Wait a minute. Isn't that exactly what he said? I didn't make it up.

Quote:

.."If the Holy Spirit lives in you that makes you my brothers and sisters. Anyone who has not accepted Jesus, I want to be your brothers and sisters, too," Bentley said.

Does it not follow from this that if you have not accepted Jesus as your saviour, you are not a brother or sister? That he wants you to accept Jesus so you can be his brother or sister?

Now, that's his criteria, not mine and I am not really concerned about it, but that is what he said.

"He didn't say you are not his brother if you don't believe in Jesus as your savior"

I understood that that is exactly what he said.

I'm tired of beating this dead horse. I believe we thoroughly did beat it to death.

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@Arella Mae,

That's the joy of religion, Arella Mae. So many people, so many definitions.

I'm sure you're a fine example of a Christian. Most especially to your understanding of Christianity. The thing is - there are other Christians, with other understandings and definitions (that's one of the reasons I tend to ask which version of the Bible they're working from).

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

It takes severe cultural ignorance about Christianity to construe this to mean "if you don't believe in Christ, you're not my brother."

Hello?

Quote:

"There may be some people here today who do not have living within them the Holy Spirit," Bentley said. ''But if you have been adopted in God's family like I have, and like you have if you're a Christian and if you're saved, and the Holy Spirit lives within you just like the Holy Spirit lives within me, then you know what that makes? It makes you and me brothers. And it makes you and me brother and sister."

Bentley added, ''Now I will have to say that, if we don't have the same daddy, we're not brothers and sisters. So anybody here today who has not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, I'm telling you, you're not my brother and you're not my sister, and I want to be your brother."

Asked later if he meant to be insulting to people of other faiths, Bentley replied, ''We're not trying to insult anybody." Source

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Yes, i know you don't . . . however, although not wishing to shock and dismay you, i am pointing out that you are probably wrong.

There's always that possibility, although I'll withhold judgment until somebody comes along with a better argument.

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@IRFRANK,

IRFRANK wrote:

Quote:
.."If the Holy Spirit lives in you that makes you my brothers and sisters. Anyone who has not accepted Jesus, I want to be your brothers and sisters, too," Bentley said.

Does it not follow from this that if you have not accepted Jesus as your saviour, you are not a brother or sister? That he wants you to accept Jesus so you can be his brother or sister?

No it does not follow. To understand the logic of Bentley's statement, perhaps you will find it helpful to consider another statement he might have made: "If you drive a New York taxicab, your vehicle is yellow. If do not drive a New York Taxicab, I want your vehicle to be yellow, too." This statement is not logically equivalent to "If you don't drive a New York taxicab, your vehicle is not yellow".

If you put it like that, your logical error becomes clear: Just because all New York taxicabs are yellow (for purposes of this argument), it doesn't logically follow that everything yellow must be a New York taxicab. Analogously, just because every Christian is a sibling to Governor Bentley, it does not logically follow that everyone Governor Bentley considers a sibling must be a Christian.

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@Thomas,

um...

http://able2know.org/topic/166766-6#post-4484214

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@JPB,

JPB wrote:

Bentley added, ''Now I will have to say that, if we don't have the same daddy, we're not brothers and sisters. So anybody here today who has not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, I'm telling you, you're not my brother and you're not my sister, and I want to be your brother."

That, on the other hand, does mean "if you don't believe in Christ, you are not my brother."

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@joefromchicago,

I suspect that you wouldn't credit anyone's argument. When Mr. Bush was elected, conservative christians believed they'd have access to government--and to government funds--which did not subsequently materialize. They became disillusioned, and made it known publicly, which is evidence that they did have expectations.

In Alabama, we've already had the spectacle of the ten commandments being prominently posted by a supreme court justice, and then removed due to public pressure. I have not the least doubt that conservative christians there consider themselves to be under siege. The Governor's statement, i strongly suspect, will raise their hopes just as the hopes of conservative christians were raised by the election of Mr. Bush. What ought to be reasonable and logical has no place in practical politics, and statements such as this are not likely to be viewed with the calm reason you apply to it. They are likely to be seen by conservative christians as a statement of policy from which they can justifiably hope for much.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

JPB wrote:
Bentley added, ''Now I will have to say that, if we don't have the same daddy, we're not brothers and sisters. So anybody here today who has not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, I'm telling you, you're not my brother and you're not my sister, and I want to be your brother."

That, on the other hand, does mean "if you don't believe in Christ, you are not my brother."

I believe he is referring to God as being his heavenly father. I don't believe he is referring to the flesh when he is talking about brothers and sisters (in Christ).

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Like I said - he divided the room up into the "saved" and "unsaved" and spoke differently to each side, in fact, very condescending to the "unsaved..

This is the new "discrimination" - forget being Black or handicapped . If you aren't "saved" then you are not one of "us." Poor you, we really do want you to be "saved.". Then you would be OK.

- Very dangerous and needs to be watched.

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Suppose Bentley said: "I belong to an awesome club, and everyone else who belongs to the club is my fellow club member, and if you're not a member of my awesome club, then you're not a fellow club member, but I wish you were, 'cuz it's an awesome club." Would he be accused of marginalizing or insulting non-club members? Should non-club members be saying: "I'm not a member of his club and I don't want to be, but it was awfully rude of him to say that I'm not a fellow club member."

Well, Bentley thinks he does belong to an awesome club. It's called "Christianity." And he calls his fellow club members "brothers and sisters." And if you're not a member of the club, you're not one of his brothers or sisters. It's not a value judgment, it's not an insult, it's not an act of discrimination against those who are not members of his club. It's just a fact. You either are or you aren't a member of his club.

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@joefromchicago,

False analogy. Religions assert that they are keepers of revealed truth, and that all other doctrines are false. It's not the same as being the member of a club.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I suspect that you wouldn't credit anyone's argument.

I'm always happy to revise my opinions as a result of a convincing argument. I wish we all could say that.

Setanta wrote:

When Mr. Bush was elected, conservative christians believed they'd have access to government--and to government funds--which did not subsequently materialize. They became disillusioned, and made it known publicly, which is evidence that they did have expectations.

All the more reason not to put a whole lot of stock in what Bentley said.

Setanta wrote:

They are likely to be seen by conservative christians as a statement of policy from which they can justifiably hope for much.

They can believe what they like, just as his critics are seeing it the same way -- albeit with different expectations. But then why is Bentley responsible for the unreasonable expectations of others?

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@PUNKEY,

I am sorry but I think you are really overreacting here. He didn't call anyone unsaved. He didn't tell anyone they were going to hell. He only said he wanted to be brothers and sisters with them, which is a kindness on his part. There are lots of non-beleivers on A2K and I know they are non-believers and they know I am a Christian. I don't think any less of them because they are not Christian and I doubt they think any less of me because I am Christian. Adults know that we all have the right to our beliefs and choices.

He has the legal right to say what he did and he exercised his right. Just like you are exercising yours by making that statement about being dangerous and needs to be watched. So you want to limit "his" freedom of speech? What about yours? Aren't you calling "us" not okay and we are dangerous and need to be watched?

I think this is all being blown out of proportion. I've heard nonbelieving and believing people alike say some pretty rotten things but so what? It's their right. I'm not gonna get all offended by it.

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Non-Christian - not my brother

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