Non-Christian - not my brother

since I see the discussion continued here... your truth Krumple, is not everyone's truth... We don't make you believe in God, so why should you try to make believe that prayer doesn't work...

You guys can all go back and forth all day... nobody is going to change this person.... a stubborn person looking to get a rise out of people is going to cause nothing but anger.

I appreciate that all of my friends were by my side, thank you all very much <3

1 Reply

@Crazielady420,

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since I see the discussion continued here... your truth Krumple, is not everyone's truth... We don't make you believe in God, so why should you try to make believe that prayer doesn't work...

First of all thanks for the laugh you gave me after coming over here and proving those people wrong for thinking you wouldn't follow the thread if it were moved.

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You guys can all go back and forth all day... nobody is going to change this person.... a stubborn person looking to get a rise out of people is going to cause nothing but anger.

If you really believed that then you wouldn't have followed the discussion to this thread. And why couldn't the reverse be true of you if you claim that of me? Couldn't I say you are being stubborn? All you are trying to do is appeal to the masses as if the majority have ownership on what is considered to be true. Yes the masses can be wrong, it's called group induced ignorance. It doesn't mean that since a group of people all accept something to be true that it is in fact true on that basis.

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I appreciate that all of my friends were by my side, thank you all very much <3

You call them your friends for helping you to continue your unsupportable reality. That they are willing to lie to you just to make you feel better. If that is what you want then why stop there? Why not go all the way with it?

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

But the context of your wording implies that I would change my position if I were in such a situation, which you would want me to experience so that I could sympathize with it, since you think I am being callus. So it is not in what you said but in what way you imply the statement. It's like a back handed compliment, sure you don't wish it upon me but you want me to see it from her point of view because then I would understand the error I was making.

I meant exactly what I said. I hope you never find yourself in that position because it is a painful place to be. If I want to tell you something I will flat out state it. I don't like to play word games.

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But that's just it, I'm not making an error when pointing out reality. I know that might be hard for you to accept and it makes you feel better to deem me as an unreasonable person for making the statement. That I am the one with the problem since no one else would ever dare say such a thing. That I am the insensitive one because I would state the case when you find it unsuiting. It is these sorts of superstitions that hold us back and keeps us from being able to deal with reality in a positive way.

It pretty dangerous thinking YOU have the truth to reality and others don't.

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People like you would rather run and hide from the truth and cast out anyone who speaks the truth because it is not always appealing to hear. You don't want the truth, you want warm fuzzy lies.

Nah, I love the truth. I just don't like jackasses that think they are the only ones that have it.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

You want to censor the truth because the truth is not helpful

no. I don't know what the 'truth' is. I don't know if there is a god, or gods, or not. I do not believe it is provable that there are or are not gods.

I don't feel I'm in any position to impose my 'truth' on anyone else. I had to find it for myself, and I think it's respectful to allow others to find their own truth.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

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Nah, I love the truth. I just don't like jackasses that think they are the only ones that have it.

Did I ever say that I was the only one that has the truth? No, so why would you make that statement? I do know that prayer does not work better than non-prayer. That is a fact. Am I the only one that knows that fact, no and I would never lay claim that I was the only one who did. Many acknowledge that fact, so why don't you? Because you don't want it to be true? Or you refuse to accept that it is true?

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It pretty dangerous thinking YOU have the truth to reality and others don't.

Dangerous to always accept reality? Really since when?

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I meant exactly what I said. I hope you never find yourself in that position because it is a painful place to be. If I want to tell you something I will flat out state it. I don't like to play word games.

Well I don't honestly believe that you meant it in the way that you have otherwise you would have never said it that way. No one ever says it like that and means it in the way they say it because it is a euphemism for plight for compassion.

It's no different than someone saying, no offense or anything but they go on to say something offensive anyways. It doesn't make any sense saying it if you are going to go ahead and do it anyways. Sure they might not mean to offend the person with their comment but they know that it will because they make the statement upfront that they don't plan on it. So why say it? Because they will be distracted by the opening request to not be offended so they shouldn't be offended if they do find it offensive? If that is the case then that is what I mean by hiding within the delusion, that we would rather be lied to than face the truth. That people really don't want to hear the truth, they would rather be told lies because the truth doesn't always make us feel good.

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@ehBeth,

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no. I don't know what the 'truth' is. I don't know if there is a god, or gods, or not. I do not believe it is provable that there are or are not gods.

Would you make the same statement about goblins or fairies? Or are gods in some way exempt from the same line of rational that the existence of fairies or goblins much undergo? Why is it that you can be certain that there are no flying pink elephants but when you are posed with the existence of a god or gods you are uncertain? You are making exceptions for something without any good reason to do so, but why?

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I don't feel I'm in any position to impose my 'truth' on anyone else. I had to find it for myself, and I think it's respectful to allow others to find their own truth.

There isn't a subjective truth for everyone. If that were the case then nothing we use to interact with each other would have any meaning because everyone would have their own meaning for things. The reason that doesn't happen like that is because reality dictates our understanding of it and not the other way around. Truth reveals itself in reality, we don't pick and choose what is true or false. That is where people make the mistake. They think believing in something without any good reason to is perfectly true and reasonable when it's not.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Why is it that you can be certain that there are no flying pink elephants but when you are posed with the existence of a god or gods you are uncertain?

have I posted somewhere that I am certain that there are no flying pink elephants?

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@Krumple,

Like I said, I say what I mean. I mean this with all sincerity. You come off like a pompous jerk and you can kiss my grits.

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@Krumple,

Of course there's a subjective truth for everyone. Any maxim that isn't provable or disprovable is true for those who believe it and false for those who don't. You may think they're delusional for believing something that seems fanciful, they may think you're going to rot in hell unless you come on board. Both sentiments are equally true depending on one's mindset.

http://www.cybersalt.org/images/stories/cleanlaugh/elephants/pink_elephant_flying_fast_lg_wht.gif

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@ehBeth,

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have I posted somewhere that I am certain that there are no flying pink elephants?

Well do you believe that flying pink elephants exist?

This is like a person who is trying to cross a street with what they believe to be invisible cars. How can you be certain when it is safe to cross the street if you believe in invisible cars? You would never be able to cross the street without just making a guess. So it is irrational to hold such a belief without actually having something to verify it.

If you can not answer that flying pink elephants do not exist and remain uncertain if they do or not, you are lying. You have made the choice but despite the fact of having your point turned around you will try to entertain the idea that they could exist even though you really do not believe that they do. Predictable.

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@JPB,

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You may think they're delusion for believe something that seems fanciful, they may think you're going to rot in hell unless you come on board. Both sentiments are equally true depending on one's mindset.

An axiom is not true because someone wants it to be true. That is a contradiction in logic. Believing in something does not make it true. Reality is the deciding factor. Truth does not rely on a mindset. That is also a contradiction in reality. In reality one is wrong and the other is right, or both are wrong or both are right. You can't say that both are right and both are wrong at the same time. That doesn't make any sense and if it were true, which it's not, then absolutely nothing in reality is really what it is. How is it that you can communicate it then? Why is it that we can agree on certain tangible realities then and describe it the same way? Yet when it comes to abstract concepts like gods or god absolutely no one can agree on the properties of said god? No one agrees, they all say something different, but you ask them to point to the blue crayon they all point to the same one. Why do you not even get a single person with an incorrect selection? Why because in reality crayons are variable where as gods are not. That reveals that there is a truth that is true for all and a falseness that is also false for all.

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@Krumple,

I didn't say it was logical. Being illogical doesn't make it not true. Particularly to those who believe it is true. I believe the sun will "rise" tomorrow. I can't prove it, but I have no problem saying it's true.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

even though you really do not believe that they do.

you're making quite a few assumptions as you run along with your posting

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@JPB,

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I didn't say it was logical. Being illogical doesn't make it not true. Particularly to those who believe it is true. I believe the sun will "rise" tomorrow. I can't prove it, but I have no problem saying it's true.

But what leads you to even make the statement? Is it because you have witnessed it do it before and therefore the likelihood of it happening again supports your belief? But that is not really what you argued. You imply that even if someone were to believe something then it in fact is a truth for them. If that is the case then I can take the inverse of your statement, "The sun won't rise tomorrow." and if I believe it then it is a subjective truth for me? No, it's not. It would need to be verified first before it is considered a truth. The only way that would happen is if the sun didn't rise tomorrow. That is the mistake in logic that so many people make. They think that a thought is a valid truth because someone wants to believe that it is true. No, it can't be or else everything in reality would not be consistent. The only time you find an inconsistency with in reality it has to do with something that is in fact not real. Like the existence of a god or gods.

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@ehBeth,

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you're making quite a few assumptions as you run along with your posting

Sure, and they are valid assumptions. They could be wrong but are they? Do you believe that flying pink elephants exist in the same sense that african elephants exist?

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@Krumple,

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How is it that you can communicate it then? Why is it that we can agree on certain tangible realities then and describe it the same way? Yet when it comes to abstract concepts like gods or god absolutely no one can agree on the properties of said god? No one agrees, they all say something different, but you ask them to point to the blue crayon they all point to the same one.

Language. I believe that the typical human lacks the means to understand the language of the mystics - the ones who (I think) have seen "truth" and have tried to put it into understandable terms. Some use parables, some use poetry, some use prose, some use music but we're too thick to get it. I don't get it. I admit that whatever "god" is is beyond my rational level of comprehension which is why I'm without-god (atheist). That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that nothing that's been defined to date makes sense to me. I don't think anyone has put it together yet (maybe Baha 'u llah, but he's being interpreted as a faith practice too). But that's my truth and my truth has no influence on anyone else.

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@Krumple,

Wow. You are really stuck on logical truth, aren't you? Sure -- you could believe that the sun wouldn't rise tomorrow and spend the rest of your day planning accordingly. Then, if the sun didn't rise tomorrow you would be all ready. If it did, then... well, you might have spent your time today in more pleasurable endeavors. Folks who believe in a god and an afterlife live their lives as if that is true and do those things they think will be important in that afterlife. If, when the time comes, they were right then they're all set. If they were wrong then they could have been spending their time in other pursuits. Today planning on tomorrow's sunrise, or life planning on an afterlife. It's all the same thing.

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

but you ask them to point to the blue crayon they all point to the same one.

but they don't.

the reality is that we don't all see blue the same way - we don't all use language the same way - we don't all have the same physical abilities ... so some people point at the red crayon, some point at a blue wall, some don't point at anything

it's not as simple as you (and many of us) would like it to be

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@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

Do you believe that flying pink elephants exist in the same sense that african elephants exist?

I don't KNOW that they don't.

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@JPB,

But there is a system of verifiability. Just like we can agree on what we have experienced. The reason I think that these spiritual concepts are so "hard" for people to describe is that they are not in fact real experiences. They are more than likely made up to manipulate another into doing or behaving in a way they want them to behave. It could be something as simple as buying something to controlling their behavior. That is why spirituality is so vague of a concept, which goes right back to my definition. If it is so vague and abstract then more than likely it does not exist in reality unless it is just within the realm of imagination.

Just like alien abduction phenomena. There are thousands and thousands of people who believe they have been abducted yet there is not even a single credible shred of evidence that backs their claims other than their own testimony. Why would that be if it was such a real phenomenon? Wouldn't there at least be some tiny piece of evidence? There is none.

1 Reply

Non-Christian - not my brother

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