10
   

Hawaii governor can't find Bork's birth certificate

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:34 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

Then how come the gov. cannot find the document now?


The $60,000 question that no one wants to answer.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:38 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
This is lots better than daytime TV soap operas, Finn !! One problem, it could have some fairly severe implications if any of these doubts of his birth in Hawaii turn out to be credible after all.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:45 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Such behavior is not typical of an open and honest politician with nothing to hide.


Odd that you should mention that, Okie. Why would Bush and Cheney not wish to help clear help one of the great mysteries of American history? Why would they stall an investigation for over a year about such an important event?

Don't you find it interesting that the plane that was supposed to have hit the Pentagon was, according to data NTSB, flying too high to have hit it, was flying too high to have hit the light poles that it supposedly took out?

Don't you find it interesting that a Pentagon employee was in her office 40 feet from where the "plane" crashed into the building but she wasn't affected by the voluminous jet fuel explosion? Why? Because there wasn't one. She and others were able to walk out the hole made by the "plane".

You sure have queer sense of what's interesting?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:51 pm
@okie,
Quote:
I am typical of most people in this country. When we see smoke, we generally look and see what the source is.


That has got to be the biggest laugh ever, Okie. When most people in the USA see smoke, they rely on their government to supply any old fatuous excuse for the smoke. Of course every American has their own smoke generator and an ample supply of mirrors.

Some honest ones refuse to play that game.

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:58 pm
@okie,
Quote:
One problem, it could have some fairly severe implications if any of these doubts of his birth in Hawaii turn out to be credible after all.
Ill trade you a birth certificate for WMD's in Iraq. One is a known lie, you pick.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:58 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Then how come the gov. cannot find the document now?


They're looking in the wrong places. The right place to look would be the bureau of public records in Nairobi.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 12:21 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
okie wrote:


Then how come the gov. cannot find the document now?



The $60,000 question that no one wants to answer.


I will give you the answer. It's not that hard to figure out.

Obama has the original Hawaiian birth certificate. After the birther movement became so big early in his presidency, he realized how much of a distraction it was and made sure it wouldn't be found.

It's the oldest trick in the book, keep your opponents distracted with something irrelevant and they won't be doing more annoying things like preventing you from passing an historic health care bill.

Tell me honestly, if your adversaries were being this idiotic, would you do anything to stop them?

“I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: ‘Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And God granted it.”
— Voltaire

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 12:24 am
@okie,
Quote:
One problem, it could have some fairly severe implications if any of these doubts of his birth in Hawaii turn out to be credible after all.


What implications, Okie? Not following the consteetwoshun? That's never been a problem. "All men are created equal" - except for niggers, chinamen, japs, wops, kikes, women, Native Americans who were figure at what? 3/5 of the worth of a whitey.

Stop being such a hypocrite, fer christ's sakes!

OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 06:18 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
okie wrote:


Then how come the gov. cannot find the document now?



The $60,000 question that no one wants to answer.


I will give you the answer. It's not that hard to figure out.
He was born in Africa.
That 's not hard to figure out.
Its hard to figure out Y this African is in the White House.





David
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 08:48 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
He was born in Africa.
That 's not hard to figure out.
Its hard to figure out Y this African is in the White House.


They want to steal our precious bodily fluids?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 09:16 am
@maxdancona,
Not mine.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 09:38 am
@OmSigDAVID,
yours are all dried up and crispy by now.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 10:38 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
It's the oldest trick in the book, keep your opponents distracted with something irrelevant and they won't be doing more annoying things like preventing you from passing an historic health care bill....


You don't have much of a criteria for 'historic', do you? I mean, this was a historic exercise in gangsterism and wishful thinking and did not address any of the factors involved in the cost of medicine in America, most particularly the cost which excessive lawyering imposes on medical care and the ownership of the demoshit party by the trial lawyers' guild.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:27 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
One problem, it could have some fairly severe implications if any of these doubts of his birth in Hawaii turn out to be credible after all.
Ill trade you a birth certificate for WMD's in Iraq. One is a known lie, you pick.
koolaid drinkers are so predictable. Go to your list of whipping boys, which are WMD, Bush lied, Dick Cheney and Halliburton, Enron, etc. etc. After all, ciizenship proof to run for president is insignificant.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:28 am
@JTT,
Had any spelling lessons lately?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:28 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
It's the oldest trick in the book, keep your opponents distracted with something irrelevant and they won't be doing more annoying things like preventing you from passing an historic health care bill....


You don't have much of a criteria for 'historic', do you? I mean, this was a historic exercise in gangsterism and wishful thinking and did not address any of the factors involved in the cost of medicine in America, most particularly the cost which excessive lawyering imposes on medical care and the ownership of the demoshit party by the trial lawyers' guild.


Liar. There's no evidence that Tort reform leads to cost savings for patients.

Even more so, Obama offered Senate Republicans to include that in the deal, if they would compromise on other issues. Twice. And they refused both times. So **** 'em - and your pretensions of 'gangsterism.'

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:33 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Liar. There's no evidence that Tort reform leads to cost savings for patients.
Even more so, Obama offered Senate Republicans to include that in the deal, if they would compromise on other issues. Twice. And they refused both times. So **** 'em - and your pretensions of 'gangsterism.'
Cycloptichorn
You've made this argument before, which is dumber than stupid, cyclops. That is unless you have no common sense.
If you are running a business, and your insurance is over 100 grand per year, how would that affect the cost of your service, just for you to stay in business?
http://www.mpmlc.com/
"Insurance premiums for emergency physicians grew on average by more than 50 percent from 2002 to 2003 to $53,500 (AMA 2003), with some paying more than $100,000 annually. Other medical specialists, such as neurosurgeons and OB-GYNs pay $200,000 to $300,000 annually."

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:38 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Liar. There's no evidence that Tort reform leads to cost savings for patients.
Even more so, Obama offered Senate Republicans to include that in the deal, if they would compromise on other issues. Twice. And they refused both times. So **** 'em - and your pretensions of 'gangsterism.'
Cycloptichorn
You've made this argument before, which is dumber than stupid, cyclops. That is unless you have no common sense.
If you are running a business, and your insurance is over 100 grand per year, how would that affect the cost of your service, just for you to stay in business?
http://www.mpmlc.com/
"Insurance premiums for emergency physicians grew on average by more than 50 percent from 2002 to 2003 to $53,500 (AMA 2003), with some paying more than $100,000 annually. Other medical specialists, such as neurosurgeons and OB-GYNs pay $200,000 to $300,000 annually."


You link to an advertising website as proof of your position? Laughing

Why don't you actually try doing some research into the issue? The answer is because you're afraid that you'll find you were wrong.

Quote:
August 31, 2009, 3:45 pm
Would Tort Reform Lower Costs?
By ANNE UNDERWOOD

Medical tort reform is moving to the fore of the health care debate. On Sunday in The New York Times, former Senator Bill Bradley, Democrat of New Jersey, argued that one way to gain support of both Democrats and Republicans might be to combine universal coverage with tort reform. Mr. Bradley also suggested that medical courts with special judges could be established, similar to bankruptcy or admiralty courts.

On “This Week With George Stephanopoulos,” Senators Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, and John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, seemed to agree that medical malpractice lawsuits are driving up health care costs and should be limited in some way. “We’ve got to find some way of getting rid of the frivolous cases, and most of them are,” Mr. Hatch said. “And that’s doable, most definitely,” Mr. Kerry replied.

But some academics who study the system are less certain. One critic is Tom Baker, a professor of law and health sciences at the University of Pennsylvania School of Law and author of “The Medical Malpractice Myth,” who believes that making the legal system less receptive to medical malpractice lawsuits will not significantly affect the costs of medical care. He spoke with the freelance writer Anne Underwood.
Q.

A lot of people seem to have taken up the cause of tort reform. Why isn’t it included in the health care legislation pending on Capitol Hill?
A.

Because it’s a red herring. It’s become a talking point for those who want to obstruct change. But [tort reform] doesn’t accomplish the goal of bringing down costs.
Q.

Why not?
A.

As the cost of health care goes up, the medical liability component of it has stayed fairly constant. That means it’s part of the medical price inflation system, but it’s not driving it. The number of claims is small relative to actual cases of medical malpractice.

Q.

But critics of the current system say that 10 to 15 percent of medical costs are due to medical malpractice.
A.

That’s wildly exaggerated. According to the actuarial consulting firm Towers Perrin, medical malpractice tort costs were $30.4 billion in 2007, the last year for which data are available. We have a more than a $2 trillion health care system. That puts litigation costs and malpractice insurance at 1 to 1.5 percent of total medical costs. That’s a rounding error. Liability isn’t even the tail on the cost dog. It’s the hair on the end of the tail.
Q.

You said the number of claims is relatively small. Is there a way to demonstrate that?
A.

We have approximately the same number of claims today as in the late 1980s. Think about that. The cost of health care has doubled since then. The number of medical encounters between doctors and patients has gone up — and research shows a more or less constant rate of errors per hospitalizations. That means we have a declining rate of lawsuits relative to numbers of injuries.
Q.

Do you have numbers on injuries and claims?
A.

The best data on medical errors come from three major epidemiological studies on medical malpractice in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Each found about one serious injury per 100 hospitalizations. There hasn’t been an epidemiological study since then, because people were really persuaded by the data and it’s also very expensive to do a study of that sort. These data were the basis of the 1999 report from the Institute of Medicine, “To Err Is Human.”
Q.

And what percent of victims make claims?
A.

Those same studies looked at the rate of claims and found that only 4 to 7 percent of those injured brought a case. That’s a small percentage. And because the actual number of injuries has gone up since those studies were done — while claims have remained steady — the rate of claims is actually going down.
Q.

So the idea that there are lots of frivolous lawsuits is . . .
A.

Ludicrous.
Q.

In those cases that are brought, are jury awards excessive?
A.

There are already caps on awards in many states. These tend to be on non-economic damages — not medical expenses or lost wages, but typically on pain and suffering. The first was in California in the 1970s. There is pretty good research on that, showing it reduced medical liability payments. These caps vary from state to state, but they’re generally set around $250,000 to $500,000.
Q.

Many people would think that a quarter-million to a half-million dollars is a lot of money for pain and suffering.
A.

When California adopted its cap in the mid-1970s, it set it at $250,000. That doesn’t mean everyone got that much. It was the maximum. But that was considered a fair amount at the time. Since then, think how much inflation has eaten into that. These caps typically don’t index for inflation.
Q.

So a patient can get reimbursed for medical costs, but they’re limited for pain and suffering.

A. They get reimbursement of medical costs in principle. But in fact, they don’t, because the lawyer has to be paid. These cases can cost $100,000 to $150,000 to bring, so the patient has to deduct that amount from any award.
Q.

Why are these cases so expensive?
A.

You need expert witnesses who must be compensated for their time, which is valuable. You need depositions, which are expensive. You have to hire investigators. You have to pay your junior staff. It’s not worth bringing a suit if the potential award is less.

Imagine you go to the emergency room with appendicitis. For whatever reason, they fail to diagnose it. Your appendix bursts, and you spend a couple weeks in the hospital. I’ve had lawyers tell me they would not take a case like that, even if it’s a slam-dunk. The damages wouldn’t be enough — medical expenses, maybe a month of lost salary, although the patient might have short-term disability insurance that would cover a large part of that. It’s not enough to justify going to court.
Q.

So you’re saying that a case has to be serious to be worth trying.
A.

The medical malpractice system only works for serious injuries. What it doesn’t work for is more moderate ones. Lawyers discourage people from bringing suits if their injuries are not serious in monetary terms — a poor person or an older person who can’t claim a lot in lost wages. That’s why obstetrician-gynecologists pay such high premiums. If you injure a baby, you’re talking about a lifetime-care injury. Gerontologists’ premiums are exceedingly low.

That’s the reason I say if people are serious about tort reform, they should improve compensation for moderate injuries. Nobody likes that idea, by the way. They say it would make the system more expensive, not less expensive. More people would bring claims. That says to me that the critics are not serious about tort reform.
Q.

But it’s not just the cost of premiums and litigation. What about the charge that it causes doctors to practice “defensive medicine,” ordering tests that are expensive and unnecessary?
A.

A 1996 study in Florida found defensive medicine costs could be as high as 5 to 7 percent. But when the same authors went back a few years later, they found that managed care had brought it down to 2.5 to 3.5 percent of the total. No one has a good handle on defensive medicine costs. Liability is supposed to change behavior, so some defensive medicine is good. Undoubtedly some of it may be unnecessary, but we don’t have a good way to separate the two.
Q.

Tell me more about the 1996 study.
A.

It was published in The Quarterly Journal of Economics by Stanford economist Daniel Kessler and Dr. Mark McClellan, who was head of the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services under President George W. Bush. For two types of heart disease — heart attacks and ischemic heart disease — the authors found that 5 to 7 percent of the additional costs in Florida, compared to other states with lower medical malpractice liability, could be attributed to defensive medicine. This was based on 1980s data.

Using that estimate, some politicians used to say that medical malpractice cost the system $50 billion a year. But you can’t blindly say that all diseases are the same as heart disease, and if you want a nationwide estimate, you can’t say every state is the same as Florida. Furthermore, the second study, published in 2002 in The Journal of Public Economics, found that much of the difference disappeared as managed care took hold in Florida in the 1990s.
Q.

But many doctors complain about having to practice defensive medicine.
A.

Doctors will say that. But when you dig down, you find that what’s really happening is that doctors tend to do what other doctors around them do. They go along with the prevailing standard of care in their region — which in many cases isn’t even a state, but a city or county.
Q.

If medical malpractice doesn’t explain the high costs of our health-care system, what does?
A.

A variety of things. The American population is aging. We’ve had advances in technology that are expensive. We’re also a rich nation, and the richer you get, the more money you spend on health care. And compared to other countries, we have heavy administrative costs from the private-insurance system.
Q.

If it’s not true that medical malpractice is driving the high cost of medical care in this country, why won’t the argument go away?
A.

It makes sense to people intuitively — in part, because they’ve been told it so often. And it’s a convenient argument for those who want to derail the process. Maybe it’s a deep political game. Maybe they’re raising it to say, we’ll back off tort reform if you back off the public option.
Q.

What about former Senator Bill Bradley’s idea that medical courts with special judges should be established?
A.

Mr. Bradley has been backing tort reform for as long as I can remember, so this is hardly a compromise for him. I’m not saying medical courts would be a bad idea, as long as they’re not set up in a way that insulates medical providers from responsibility. That’s a big caveat.
Q.

What about Senator John Kerry’s assertion that it’s “doable” to rid the system of frivolous lawsuits?
A.

I guess it’s doable because there aren’t very many frivolous suits.


http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/would-tort-reform-lower-health-care-costs/

There's just no evidence to support your assertions.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:54 am
@Cycloptichorn,
The real funny thing about Tort reform is that Republicans absolutely love to sue people - when they think they have been wronged, that is.

http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Senator-Alesi-Sues-Couple-that-Declined-to-Press/LCflMQQFr0qttwDf_dAapw.cspx

And who can forget this classic example of Bork, the godfather of Tort reform, suing the Yale Club in NYC when he tripped and fell.

http://www.tortdeform.com/archives/2007/06/the_real_hypocrites_in_the_dra.html

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:55 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclops, my brother was a family physician all of his working life. Actual real life information is where much of my "research" has been done. We had many discussions about the medical industry. His insurance was small and it stayed that way because he never had any cases filed against him, but even with that, I think it was over $20,000 annualy, I am not sure the exact number. He always kept his basic office charges as low as he could, but liability insurance was one of his largest expense growth areas. Even if a lower liability insurance cost could have allowed him to lower his office visit cost by a dollar or 5 dollars, that would amount to a fairly major cost cutting nationwide. When he started practice in the 60's, he charged $3.00 for an office visit. I do not know what it was by the time he retired, but I think liability insurance was one of the biggest growth expenditures that impacted the medical industry. As a side issue, one of the reasons he retired when he did, he grew more and more tired of the paperwork required by the government and for the government, caused mainly by government intrusion into the medical industry.

People are not stupid, cyclops, and there is a reason why there are lawyer jokes. I have noticed local ads on radio and TV, that I would consider ambulance chaser ads, such as did you have an accident and do you suffer from neck or back ache, we will take your case on a percentage basis at no cost to you, blah blah blah. How do you think John Edwards got rich?

My point is, why throw out the baby with the bath water? There are smaller things here and there that we can fix, and one of them is tort reform. For example, to make a car run better, we need to do maintenance and fixes, not scrap the car and buy a new one that we cannot afford. Tort reform in itself will not fix the problems, but it is one piece of the overall puzzle. Everyone knows the legal lobby is in the back pocket of Democrats especially, and so it is not going to be easy to fix.
 

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