10
   

Hawaii governor can't find Bork's birth certificate

 
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 08:49 am
David said:
Quote:
I wonder what will happen if it turns out that obama was never an American ?


Do you see the word "president" in there somewhere David?
Obama is unquestionably American.

The only time it makes a difference whether or not an American is born on American soil or in a possession, is if that kid eventually runs for president. To contend that an 18 year old mom-to-be left where she was living, somehow got to Kenya (not that quick, simple, or cheap, from Hawaii in 1961), was there for some time, possibly several months, til she went into labor, had her baby, and then went right back to Hawaii and somehow fed false birth announcements to two independent-of-each-other Honolulu newspapers, all so her baby could run for president almost fifty years later--the only time his place of birth would make a difference-- simply boggles credibility. But then the far right boggles credibility every day.

Have any other cospiracy theories with at least a modicum of credibility you'd like to share with us?
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 08:54 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:


Obama is unquestionably American.


Not really.

Obama didn't start 'living' in the lower 48 until college, his formative 'wonder bread years' took place in Indonesia and Hawaii.
Children are not taught real American history in Indonesia and Hawaii. Obama is quasi American and quasi black.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 08:56 am
@MontereyJack,
Except for him to NOT be a natural born citizen, she would have had to been out of the country for 10 years. Which means she could not have met Obama's father in a US school and married him. The conspiracy just gets bigger. Her school records must be all faked.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 08:58 am
@H2O MAN,
When did Hawaii become not a part of America?

I am curious how Palin is able to run for office since she doesn't live in the lower 48. I guess that makes her quasi American as well doesn't it?
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 08:59 am
@parados,
Idiot
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 09:00 am
@H2O MAN,
When you are talking to yourself squirt, you don't have to post it here.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 09:40 am
@parados,
Quote:
For most Americans, it is not hard to come up
with a birth certificate; its not usually a point of controversy.
parados wrote:
And it wasn't hard for Obama to come up with a birth certificate either. His official birth certificate is available for everyone to look at online. It is the similar to any birth certificate any other American would get to show they were born in the US. The US government obviously accepted Obama's when he applied for a passport so any argument that it isn't valid is specious at best or plain old stupidity.
Copies thereof SHOUD BE AVAILABLE from the original issuing source.
I have gotten copies of birth certificates
from their source by asking for them and sending a processing fee.


Quote:
If the child of an American is born outside of America,
as a general rule, he is not an American.
parados wrote:
Where did you say you studied law? Perhaps you have forgotten you should research the law before before you comment on it. At no time in US history has the child born to a US citizen not been an American as a general rule.
I will admit that I did not study the law of immigration.
That was an elective course in which I had no interest.
I have never had even remote contact with any litigated
case of immigration. I remain pleased with that.


Your second link tells us:
" The ABC’s of Immigration:
Citizenship Rules for People Born Outside the United States

All persons born in the United States are citizens of the United States [ . . .]
This is perhaps the only simple rule of US citizenship.
One of the most complicated areas of US citizenship law
involves the passage of citizenship to children born outside the US
to one or more US citizen parents
.

While naturalized US citizens are treated like
natural born citizens, which includes those who
are deemed citizens even when born outside the
US, in almost every respect, there is one
important office that only natural born citizens
can hold – the presidency (though expect to see
efforts in Congress to change this if Governor
Arnold Schwarzenegger decides to run for
President). . . .
The rules determining when such children are
citizens are extremely detailed, and vary a great
deal depending on when the child was born since
the laws changed several times in the 20th century."

Obama alleges that this is not an issue in his case,
because he allegedly was born in Hawaii.

If someone runs for the Presidency
who admittedly was born of an American citizen
who was on alien territory at the time of birth,
I 'm not sure whether he will be deemed a natural
born American citizen.





Quote:
Congress first recognized the citizenship of children born to U.S. parents overseas on March 26, 1790, stating that "the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens:
I doubt that Congress has the authority to change
what the Constitution says qua who are "natural born citizens."
Admittedly, there is a possibility that the Founders
did (secretly) embrace that definition in mind
that the children of American citizens born outside
of America will be American citizens. Maybe. I dunno.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States

http://www.visalaw.com/05jan1/2jan105.html
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:33 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Copies thereof SHOUD BE AVAILABLE from the original issuing source.

And a copy was released. The fact that people want more and more copies because they somehow feel an official document isn't good enough doesn't mean that Obama wasn't born in HI. It only means some people won't accept anything no matter how official it is.

Quote:
If someone runs for the Presidency
who admittedly was born of an American citizen
who was on alien territory at the time of birth,
I 'm not sure whether he will be deemed a natural
born American citizen.

And again, you spout off without bothering to look into the complicated rules. Under the majority of circumstances they would be deemed a natural born citizen of the US and eligible to be President. It is only under circumstances where their parents hadn't lived in the US for a decade or more that they would not have that status.

Quote:
I doubt that Congress has the authority to change
what the Constitution says qua who are "natural born citizens."
Admittedly, there is a possibility that the Founders
did (secretly) embrace that definition in mind
that the children of American citizens born outside
of America will be American citizens. Maybe. I dunno.
For someone that doesn't know you sure seem to have a strong opinion about who isn't able to be President.

Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 11:56 am
It's not as complicated as you imply, Parados. In the Dred Scott case, the dissent (not contradicted by the majority) held that jus solis (place of birth) is the determinate, not descent by blood (jus sanguinis). This is the attitude taken in the fourteenth amendment, the very first sentence of which reads:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

When reviewed against the text of Article II, Section One:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. (emphasis added)

. . . it is clear that any candidate for that office must be born on American soil (being naturalized doesn't qualify). Military installations, embassies and legations qualify as American soil, but simple descent does not make the cut. The Senator from Connecticut, Lowell P. Weicker, who came to prominence first from his participation on the Watergate Committee, was born of American parents in Paris. He was not eligible for the office, and it was discussed at the time, because he was a Republican and one of several names brought up to be a Republican standard bearer in that time of their disarray.

That Obama was born in Hawaii means that he is qualified for the offcie, even if both of his parents had not been Americans.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 12:24 pm
@parados,
Quote:
If someone runs for the Presidency
who admittedly was born of an American citizen
who was on alien territory at the time of birth,
I 'm not sure whether he will be deemed a natural
born American citizen.
parados wrote:
And again, you spout off without bothering to look into the complicated rules.
I attend this forum for a pleasant time.
I did not come to do tedious work.
Spouting off is OK. Expressing one 's views is OK.
I am not selling my services here,
nor am I trying to convince anyone here about obama.
U don't hear me yelling for impeachment and removal.




parados wrote:
Under the majority of circumstances they would be deemed a natural born citizen of the US and eligible to be President. It is only under circumstances where their parents hadn't lived in the US for a decade or more that they would not have that status.
Maybe. In candor, I have no opinion.
I just look at the possibilities n chat about them.




Quote:
I doubt that Congress has the authority to change
what the Constitution says qua who are "natural born citizens."
Admittedly, there is a possibility that the Founders
did (secretly) embrace that definition in mind
that the children of American citizens born outside
of America will be American citizens. Maybe. I dunno.
parados wrote:
For someone that doesn't know you sure seem
to have a strong opinion about who isn't able to be President.
I take exception to your characterization.
U portray me as being strident; that is false.
I have an open mind on the subject.





David

0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 12:25 pm
@parados,
You are an idiot.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 12:29 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
It's not as complicated as you imply, Parados. In the Dred Scott case, the dissent (not contradicted by the majority) held that jus solis (place of birth) is the determinate, not descent by blood (jus sanguinis). This is the attitude taken in the fourteenth amendment, the very first sentence of which reads:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

When reviewed against the text of Article II, Section One:

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. (emphasis added)

. . . it is clear that any candidate for that office must be born on American soil (being naturalized doesn't qualify). Military installations, embassies and legations qualify as American soil, but simple descent does not make the cut. The Senator from Connecticut, Lowell P. Weicker, who came to prominence first from his participation on the Watergate Committee, was born of American parents in Paris. He was not eligible for the office, and it was discussed at the time, because he was a Republican and one of several names brought up to be a Republican standard bearer in that time of their disarray.

That Obama was born in Hawaii means that he is qualified for the offcie, even if both of his parents had not been Americans.
To my mind, this seems to be a well reasoned post; fully plausible.





David
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 02:40 pm
@Setanta,
But natural born citizen is not the same thing as born in the US.

A person born to US citizens abroad is a natural born citizen since they are a citizen by birth.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 04:19 pm
@parados,
Dance how you want, i've provided the bases for what i've stated, and you have offered nothing but an appeal to logic. The law is the law, whether or not we think it logical.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 05:07 pm
@Setanta,
You provided a basis for your opinion but it isn't the law.

This is what was said about that argument when it was argued that McCain didn't meet the standard as you laid out.
Quote:
Professor Tribe agreed. Reading the “limits and jurisdiction” clause as Professor Chin does, Professor Tribe said, “is to attribute a crazy design to Congress” that “would create an irrational gap.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us/politics/11mccain.html
But even the lawyer that makes the argument about McCain states this
Quote:
There are, Professor Chin argued in his analysis, only two ways to become a natural-born citizen. One, specified in the Constitution, is to be born in the United States. The other way is to be covered by a law enacted by Congress at the time of one’s birth.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 05:13 pm
@Setanta,
Some more reading on the topic.

http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Jan, 2011 05:41 pm
@parados,
And if we really want to talk about the law then I guess we should look at the law.
(the law has changed over time but here is current law.)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1401.html

Quote:
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

That phrase certainly seems to me to be the definition of natural born, the citizenship is granted at birth.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 04:24 am
You'll need to take that up with the courts, Parados. You haven't made your case, and question is not who is or who is not a citizen, the question is who is and is not eligible to the office of President. You have also completely ignored what i pointed out, to wit, that anyone born on U.S. soil is eligible, even if neither of his or her parents are/were citizens.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 05:44 am
@Setanta,
mmmmm,Bork n Beans
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Sat 29 Jan, 2011 10:53 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
You have also completely ignored what i pointed out,

No, I haven't ignore what you pointed out. You don't seem to understand my argument.

The requirement for President is "natural born". The requirement is not born on US soil.
The courts and the law do not require born on US soil in order to be a natural born citizen.
The law states natural born includes children born to US citizens overseas with a few exceptions

Of course anyone born on US soil is eligible to be President but most people born to US citizens overseas are also eligible. Those born on US soil are a subset of those that are natural born. Those born overseas to US citizens that have spent time in the US as required by law are also a subset of those that are natural born.

There are basically 2 kinds of US citizens. Natural born and naturalized. Natural born are those that are citizens of the US based on their parentage or location of birth. Naturalized are those that are granted citizenship later in life, usually as a result of applying for it. All natural born citizens are eligible to be President even if they were born outside the US.


There are basically 3 kinds of Natural born citizens
Born in US territory to US citizens
Born in US territory to non US citizens
Born on non US territory to US citizens (with some limitations defined under the law)
 

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