Depression - self centeredness?

I don't know if that helps anybody, I started a thread

http://able2know.org/topic/165989-1#post-4460119

I don't really know how to explain it other than to say that when I got into a serious depression I had no idea I was depressed and I was completely annoyed by anyone showing concern. That only drove me deeper. Nothing was "wrong" so if I could just avoid the world they'd leave me alone.

I think my reactions were really based on how I grew up. I had a great parents but my depression wasn't recognized for what it was -- I don't know if anyone, other than maybe psychiatrists, recognized that kids suffer from depression back in the 70s. I remember telling me to "snap out of it" and me having no idea what "it" they meant. They probably thought I was being self-centered.

My depressions were not situational but they could be aggravated by situations and my turning point came when my dad, who was only in his 60s, was dying from complications from Alzheimer's disease. I got very seriously depressed and finally had a good excuse, and good enough insurance, to call for help.

I learned a lot from therapy and benefited from medication -- but mostly I learned I didn't have to live that way.

I have no idea how it works for anyone else but I didn't want help because that was my normal so it just seems like people were pestering me about being me and that's a pretty awful feeling.

I appreciate that you take the time to explain. I don't know if we're having a communications problem due to semantics or due to some misunderstanding of actual substance so I hope you'll post on my new thread. It's about, well, semantics v substance.

I will try again to ask you: you didn't know "depression" like a kid doesn't know "torn meniscus". These are semantics. The substance is the kid knows his knee hurts like hell. That's substance.

I'm sorry I hope I don't sound personal please just think of it as substance not words used to describe a substance. Did you feel miserable? That's what you considered "normal"? Or could you compare your situation with a past that you knew was better, or compare it with other people's presents that looked better?

When you hurt your knee you have something to compare it with -- an unhurt knee.

Depression didn't work that way for me. It was my normal. I didn't know that other people didn't feel this way or that it was possible to feel any different.

Depression isn't really unhappiness. Certainly not misery. Maybe it is for people who suffer from situational depression. Maybe they can say "before X happened I was so happy". It didn't work that way for me.

That's really about all I can tell you -- what it was like for me -- and even that's hard to explain.

Thank you.

I guess this writing can't be easy for you and you're doing it to help others. I hope more posters stop by to thank you and I'm real glad you're feeling better now.

If you're just getting to know this person then you've got a chicken and egg kind of thing with the narcissism and depression. Which came first, and is one a manifestation of the other?

Here's an article that talks about the link between the two.

Your welcome.

It's hard to explain but I don't mind talking about it. To me it's just like someone saying "oh I was born without a thumb" or something like that -- something they didn't really have any control over.

For years I self medicated with excessive exercise. I almost wish I hadn't found another way to deal with it!

Yes.

Simply because for many depressed folk it becomes very hard to focus on others...except perhaps to focus on concerns about how negatively others may view you.

I've been through several rounds of clinical depression. It runs in my family.

In my experience, depression wouldn't be fairly characterized as simply a feeling of sadness or desperation. It's more like the mind turns inward on itself and gets caught in endless circles. It's exhausting, which accounts for why I'd be so tired and want to sleep so much.

Hi Folks

Well, after all the intelligent conversation here, my explanation of why I asked this is going to seem pretty mundane. However, reading the responses really did help me clarify this in my head.

It wasn't that something going on IS a problem, but I was starting to see where it could become a problem, and I wanted to cut it off at the pass. I needed to establish some boundaries, and I think I've made a good start.

For whoever wants to hear the "why", read on, if you don't care, go away.

I'll call the person in question Ed.

Ok, my husband has the tendency to take in stray cats, not the 4 legged kind. In the past year, through seeing a pychiatrist and the proper medication, he himself has made tremendous strides in his own long term problems with depression, and he's learned he has this trait of wanting to be the patron saint of lost causes. I'm not going to go into it here why he does that. But, he has gotten a lot better about it, he's managed to extricate himself from the clutches of people who were really just using him, not being helped.

Ed is a new friend of his. Ed's suffered from major depression much of his life. Wally listens to him, is basically there just to be a shoulder to lean on. Wally goes to this senior activity center every day during the week to play pool, Ed is there too. It's just unavoidable they see each other, and honestly, that isn't the problem. Wally has plenty of other friends there too. Ed's just one of a dozen or so people he hangs with.

Here's where I come in.

It had been informally decided that on Thanksgiving, our good neighbor Bill would come to our house for dinner with a friend, and that we'd go to his house for Xmas dinner.

Wally invited Ed to Thanksgiving too, since he has no family around. This was the first time I met the guy. The day was uneventful, I played the hostess, making introductions, making sure no one was left out, etc. When Ed left, I said to Wally "Jeez, that Ed really IS depressed. He was starting to bum me out, and make me anxious" I'd noticied that during conversation, whenever Ed talked, it would be to bring the subject around to him, being the sad sack, etc. Hey, I understand he's depressed, but I'm gonna be honest, it isn't my job to save him, he was simply a guest at my house, and was treated with hospitality. I didn't single him out for any special treatment.

Neighbor Bill had invited Ed over to his house for Xmas, since Wally & I were going there anyway.

Xmas day, Ed comes to our house maybe an hour before we were going next door to Bills. I'm here in the office, screwing around on the puter, when Wally let's him in. I hear Wally say "Merry Christmas...(then) What's the matter?"
Ed doesn't answer, I lean back where I can see Ed walk into the living room, and sit down on the sofa. He's crying his eyes out, I mean doing that silent wailing thing. Can't even talk. You know, holiday depression and all that.

Seriously, I get that. However, I hardly know the guy, I'm not going to come out and get all involved with it. He's got Wally out there, and all he can do is basically sit there and wait for him to stop crying. After awhile Ed settles down, the mood or whatever it was passes, we go next door to Bills house. He doesn't get upset again.
At Bills, I don't single out Ed any more for conversation than anyone else, don't ignore him either.
During dinner though, I noted (and I know Bill did too, by the looks he gave me) that whatever someone started talking about, Ed would turn it into something about him, and his state of mind.
After dinner, we go over to the local family pool center, where we were going to meet up with Shewolf and Bean. When they show up, I'm spending the next couple hours not even talking to Wally, let alone Ed, since I'm yakking away with Shewolf, watching Bean horse around with the video games etc. You know, girl stuff.
At some point, Ed leaves to go home. "bye Ed, nice seeing you, ok, bye"
I say to Shewolf, "That guy got major depression, he came to the house all crying and ****"
Wolf, who never even talked to him past "hello" replied something like "Yeah, I picked up on that right away"

Then, since Wolf's ADD, and I'm OCD she said "Let's ride bikes!" and I said "Let's count how many bikes there are!" to which she replied "What?"
In other words, no more thoughts about Ed.

whew...so anyway, that's background up to the part that concerned me.

Yesterday, I left work in the middle of the day, since nothing was going on, due to the holdiday. I stop by the activity center to say Hi to Wally, since I know he's there. There's a combination of people I know and don't know there, probably around 8 people hanging out, Ed included. I start a conversation with another friend of Wally's, a guy named Pete. Pete's daughter is a writer, and recently had her first book published, so he of course was the proud papa, and I was interested in hearing about her success, asked him about the publishing process, etc. I know I spoke with Ed at some point, wishing him a Happy New Year, etc. I was there maybe 15 or 20 minutes altogether, and I then I went home.

A little later, I call Wally to ask him to pick up some orange juice on the way home. He says to me, "Hey, Ed wanted me to ask you if you had some kind of problem with him."
Well, that was out of the freaking blue. I said "Noooo...." Wally thought I was saying that like "noooo....I can't believe he said that", so he replied "yeeeeesssss....." which I took, rightly or wrongly as "so what's the problem you have with him?"

I said to Wally "Honey, I hardly even know the guy, so I don't have a problem, because I don't know him, and don't care one way or the other about him." Then the conversation moved on to something else.

I thought about it after I hung up, and that why I started this thread.
First off, my thinking was Ed had to be pretty self centered in his thinking process, since even though he's eaten at my house, my interactions with him have been very very limited. Nothing past saying things like "Oh, that's interesting" or "More cranberry sauce Ed?" Like he's created a relationship that doesn't exist.
That doesn't bother me, but him dragging Wally into it does. I've been around the block enough times to know how this **** goes down.

Ed imagines a slight on my part, because he's thinking about himself, and that he must be a part of everything that happens.
Since he doesn't even freaking know me well enough to ask me what's wrong, or is the type of person who won't "send the letter to the right address", meaning talk to me, he sends Wally as his messenger.
Knowing how weird **** can get, I can totally see Ed continuing to imagine a problem. The old "well, you said that she said she doesn't have a problem, but I don't know, maybe she does"
I'm also not going to approach him, or bring it up in any way, since that would just put it in his mind that I am giving this importance, meaning about him.

Any importance I attach to this has to do with the way this could impact my relationship with Wally, if he falls into the roll of messenger boy. Wally knows I'm #1, but it could be awkward if Ed is going to be paranoid about it. You know, wanting to remain on friendlys term with him too.

The upshot of this all was that last evening I had a brief conversation with Wally about it.

Basically I said I didn't even know the guy, don't care one way or the other about the guy, and have no interest in getting to know him. I said my main concern was if Ed thought he was going to start some kind of back and forth, using Wally as a go between, he was wrong. I said that someone like him wasn't going to put a wedge between the 2 of us.

I wasn't surprised that Wally indicated that Ed did pursue the thought of "I think she has a problem with me, what did I do?", and that my thoughts and feelings on this were valid.

So, now we both know it's not even something we have to talk about any more.

Wow.
I just read this after composing my long post.

YES!
That is exactly what I was thinking.

Thanks, and Happy New Year.

In the case of "Ed" and a few others, the two behaviors may be connected. In most cases of depression, however, that is not what is really going on.

Ed is a sucker. He will suck all the energy out of the people around him. He wanted attention and when he didn't get it from you, he wondered why. He could be narcissist, too.

You said that you just don't want to get to know him any further. He will not like accepting that, but he will, since he has to find another audience, soon.

You are under no obligation to be BFF's with everyone who comes along the pike.

I think it's dangerous to generalize about depression this way. Anyone who's ever had a loved one suffer from it knows how much time, care, and emotional energy it takes to be there for that person, which, it goes without saying, is what you do for someone you love. When I say "be there" I mean take out the trash for them and cook them dinner, your alternative being to let them starve in their filthy apartment.

After an extended period of having to be selfless--and I would say the average human, excluding parents, goes through long stretches not having to be particularly selfless--you begin to think about the toll your efforts are taking on yourself. That is when you notice your ill loved one doesn't seem notice. Which they ******* can't, because they can't even take out the trash. And so you realize they aren't being self-centered, at least not by virtue of the fact that you are compelled, out of love, to give them attention. And you realize you need to grow up.

Because if you decide that this is one of those instances where it's important to put yourself first, and start saying stupid **** like "toxic personality," and you distance yourself from them, they will potentially distance themselves from you. And when I say distance I mean an entirely other plane of existence, or perhaps non-existence--we'll all find out someday. That's what I mean by dangerous.

This may or may not be what Chai means. I suspect not, but nevertheless, "self-centered" is pejorative and therefore loaded with implications I find inaccurate if the word is applied broadly.

Also, not all depressed people act self-centered. Not even by any of the varying definitions presented in this thread. So there's that, too.

thinking of the connotations of the term 'soul vampire'.

Depression takes many forms and you can't generalize. Like others have already said.

I am living with a bi-polar step daughter in our house. It is very difficult putting up with her behavior and it is completely self centered on her part. My wife and I have learned that we have to support each other at all times and avoid her manipulations but not to shut her out. It is difficult. We've been to therapy more than once and have been living with it for years. Basically we only put up with it because she has a 12 year old daughter we care about and want the daughter to have the best chance at a good life on her own.

It's hard enough dealing with it with family, I certainly wouldn't be very happy if my spouse or significant other brought people home that had similar problems. Managing relationships with 'disturbed' people takes a great deal of effort and is often stressful. I wouldn't want to do it if I didn't have to.

Sometimes living in a cave sounds like a good idea. But that would be pretty self centered in itself.

U r a good writer.
U make it interesting.





David

I remember in the 1970s, I was slightly acquainted with a girl named Laura.
She was maybe 25 or 30. She seemed to be getting a little sad,
and losing interest in her personal appearance.

I decided to try to raise her morale by asking her out to dinner; I did.
In conversation, I found that I was way, way over my head
as far as psychiatric considerations with her. She was under major delusions.
I had no idea of that, until I drew her out in casual conversation over dinner.

I gave up after 1 date.





David

I came across this quote by Mark Vonnegut today and it reminded me of this thread so I thought I'd share it here: