68
   

The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 10:28 am
@revelette,
Romney's argument is that his income is his corporation's profits. Those profits get taxed twice: First on the corporate level as a corporate tax of 30%, second on the individual level as an income tax on dividends---currently 15%. That rate is set to rise to 36% in 2013, when the Bush-era tax cuts expire.

In principle, that's a sound argument. In practice, it may or may not be sound. That depends on Romney's savviness for hiding his company's profits in tax havens, and on any income-tax deductions he can make against his corporation's corporate taxes. I don't know how much of its profits, if any, Romney's corporation has hidden in tax havens; I am also not familiar with the relevant tax code. Hence, I'll withhold judgment about the practical part of the matter.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:00 am
@Thomas,
I think I understand, but at the end of the day he ended up with a $45 million in income of which he only paid about 14% to the IRS.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:02 am
@Thomas,
Meanwhile those of us earning money for a living get taxed 3 times.
We have to pay FICA tax on our earnings
Then we have to pay income tax on our earnings.
Then we have to pay sales tax on any earnings we spend.

That's 3 taxes!!!

The double taxation argument is BS. It always has been BS. If he doesn't want to pay taxes on it, then don't take it as income. The minute you move money from one place to another it is a different tax.
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:03 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Romney's argument is that his income is his corporation's profits. Those profits get taxed twice: First on the corporate level as a corporate tax of 30%, second on the individual level as an income tax on dividends---currently 15%. That rate is set to rise to 36% in 2013, when the Bush-era tax cuts expire.

In principle, that's a sound argument.

No it's not. As Romney has pointed out, corporations are people, my friend. That doesn't mean, however, that Romney is the same person as a corporation. Income to the corporation isn't income to the individual stockholder -- they're not the same people. If a person receives income, then that person pays income tax. If a person receives income and then turns a portion of that income over to someone else, that second person receives income and needs to pay income tax.

As Joe Nation pointed out, when my employer receives income, it pays taxes, and then, out of that income, it pays my salary, on which I have to pay taxes. Nobody says that that's double taxation, yet it is identical to the situation where the corporation pays dividends out of its profits.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:09 am
Quote:
The disclosure shows Romney had an adjusted gross income of $21.6 million in 2010 and an estimated $20.9 million in 2011, largely all of it profits, dividends or interest from investments.

No income was reported from earned wages, as Romney collected millions in capital gains from a myriad of investments, as well as stock dividends and interest payments.

In 2010, Romney and his wife, Ann, paid about $3 million in federal taxes to the IRS on their adjusted gross income, for an effective tax rate of 13.9 percent. And for 2011, Romney estimates he will pay about $3.2 million, for an effective rate of 15.4 percent — significantly lower than rates paid by President Obama and Romney's biggest GOP challenger, Newt Gingrich.

How can this be possible? Very simple.

Romney has taken advantage of tax loopholes that are a direct reflection of the archaic American tax system.

The most glaring loophole in current law that Romney has taken advantage of is the treatment of "carried interest."

Romney and his wife earned $7.4 million in so-called carried interest in 2010 and $5.5 million in 2011, reflecting his share of profits from the private equity firm Bain Capital, which he co-founded in 1984 and retired from in 1999.

That money is currently taxed at the rate normally reserved for long-term capital gains — the 15 percent top capital gains rate rather than the 35 percent top rate for ordinary income earned by people providing personal services.

Managers of private equity funds, such as Bain Capital, don't receive a salary but take a percentage of the fund's profits, which is taxed as capital gains at 15 percent, even though it's a personal service.

In an interview with ABC, Rebecca Wilkins, senior counsel for federal tax policy at Citizens for Tax Justice, noted "most of the income is capital gains, which comes through Bain, all of which is probably carried interest."

The unethical matter is that the carried interest should be taxed at the rates which normally apply to earned income, which tops out at 35 percent. If Romney's carried interest income in the last two years had been taxed at that higher rate, he would have owed about $4.8 million in federal taxes, almost $2.6 million more than under the current tax code.

Romney's investments in foreign entities, some located in Luxembourg, Ireland and the Cayman Islands, are all famous tax havens. Bain Capital, as well as Romney's individual retirement account, have significant holdings in funds based in the Caymans and other low-tax countries to take advantage of these loopholes.

These offshore accounts have provided Romney and Bain Capital with various potential financial benefits, such as higher management fees and greater foreign interest, all at the expense of the U.S. Treasury.


source



spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 11:48 am
@revelette,
I think the writer of your quote revel is hinting that Mr Romney is up for grinding the faces of the poor.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 12:00 pm
@spendius,
I continue to be alarmed at how many REBUBS felt as long as two years ago that Romney was hard to beat, and who even now that it is even more clear that America does not want Romney still support him. I dont know exactly what has gone wrong with the GOP, but this election cycle shows just how out of touch the party leaders (by this I mean primarily the financiers of party operations) are with the people. Romney or Newt VS Obama as the choice in NOV is food for revolution. None of these guys are even remotely good enough for us.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 12:03 pm
Quote:
Romney has taken advantage of tax loopholes that are a direct reflection of the archaic American tax system.
Romney and who else? Tens of thousands (if not millions) of us. The 'archaic' tax code doesn't get changed because of the lawmakers to whom it's most beneficial.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 12:05 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Quote:
Romney has taken advantage of tax loopholes that are a direct reflection of the archaic American tax system.
Romney and who else? Tens of thousands (if not millions) of us. The 'archaic' tax code doesn't get changed because of the lawmakers to whom it's most beneficial.


The benefits go to the wealthy, those who have taken control of Washington. Sure, as part of the payoff they pass a little wealth to Washington insiders, but for the most part Washington operators are more stooge than looter. Romney more than most is one of the looters though....it takes a lot of balls to try to get him elected in this economic climate, also idiocy.....this election was the GOP's to lose, and they seem well on their way.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 12:09 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Quote:
Romney has taken advantage of tax loopholes that are a direct reflection of the archaic American tax system.
Romney and who else? Tens of thousands (if not millions) of us. The 'archaic' tax code doesn't get changed because of the lawmakers to whom it's most beneficial.


Well, yeah, but let's be honest. You and I have a few small things we can do to take advantage of loopholes or gimmicks. Romney and other uber-rich fellows do this to a much greater degree; a candle compared to a bomb.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  4  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 12:25 pm
@Irishk,
Actually, it doesn't get changed because folks who stand to lose the most hire very expensive lobbyists. There was an attempt to eliminate the carried interest rule in 2007 and Romney, et al came out strongly against the change. Jon Stewart says it best -- Poor people have shitty lobbyists.

It's really a shame that the best explanations come via Comedy Central.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-january-24-2012/indecision-2012---i-know-what-you-did-last-quarter
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 12:49 pm
@parados,
parados, We actually pay more than three forms of taxes. Ever check your utility bill? Even gasoline has some taxes included. And don't forget property, state, local, and those dang other federal taxes they name something else other than "income." Look at the taxes they tack onto cigarettes and liquor. Even bottles and cans have a "tax." When you fly, there are other federal "security, and agriculture" taxes. I'm sure there a lot more. Oh yeah, when you buy a tv today, they tack on a disposal fee.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  4  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 01:09 pm
@JPB,
http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/7/w/s/3/Lobbyist-List.jpg
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 02:31 pm
Hi. The debate tonight, the last in FL before next Tuesday's primary, will be at 8 ET on CNN (cnn.com). Audience participation in the form of cheering and booing will be back for the 2 hour event.
Polls out today suggest that Romney has stalled Gingrich's surge. The difference in the numbers, though, are at or near the MOE.
Both candidates spent yesterday working the Cuban-American audiences. Romney seems to be winning more supporters in that group.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 02:34 pm


Let's be honest - when compared to Obama, any of the 4 remaining GOP hopeful would be a great improvement.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 02:35 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:
It really makes no sense. If the company I work for pays taxes on its profits (and it does) and then pays me out of what's left

It doesn't. Companies pay their wages out of before-tax revenue. (From their perspective, labor is one of the costs of goods sold, and hence not part of their taxable income. By contrast, corporations pay their stockholders' dividends out of after-tax revenue. The difference between the two is probably part of Romney's point.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 02:41 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
Income to the corporation isn't income to the individual stockholder -- they're not the same people.

It's the same income, ultimately owned by the same natural person. I understand the difference as a matter of law. But as a matter of practice, what difference does it make whether I own a chunk of money directly or indirectly through a corporation I own?

joefromchicago wrote:
As Joe Nation pointed out, when my employer receives income, it pays taxes, and then, out of that income, it pays my salary, on which I have to pay taxes.

No it doesn't. As I said in my response to JoeNation, your salary comes out of the corporation's before-tax income.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 02:44 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
Meanwhile those of us earning money for a living get taxed 3 times.
We have to pay FICA tax on our earnings
Then we have to pay income tax on our earnings.
Then we have to pay sales tax on any earnings we spend.

That's 3 taxes!!!

Apples to oranges: corporations also pay FICA taxes, and their owners also pay sales taxes when they spend their dividends.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 02:46 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:

No it doesn't. As I said in my response to JoeNation, your salary comes out of the corporation's before-tax income.

And the owner of a corporation could just pay themselves a salary equal to the profits and avoid the corporate tax. But then they would have a higher tax liability.

It's a case of having their cake and eating it too while complaining the cake isn't good enough for them.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Jan, 2012 02:47 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:


Apples to oranges: corporations also pay FICA taxes, and their owners also pay sales taxes when they spend their dividends.

Which only reinforces my point that ALL dollars pay taxes more than once. It's only a question of when and how those dollars change hands.
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.13 seconds on 12/23/2024 at 05:25:22