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The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 04:50 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
There are several factors behind all this but two figure most prominently: (1) the current recession and the attendant reduction in sales and income tax receipts; (2) the rapid expansion of public employee unions and the large increases in pay and pension benefits alloted to them by Democrat legislators in the pay of these unions, and their subsequent failure to meet actuarial standards in funding these give aways in current budgets.


Uh, hello?!? You want to pin this on the Democrats?

What about Republican governors in many states, such as NJ, who actively stole money from their pension fund obligations in order to cut taxes?

The idea that the Dems are responsible for the pension problems we are currently seeing is laughable. Both parties are responsible for them.

Quote:
That is merely your opinion and one you offer without any supporting argument or facts.


Fact: the 'tea party' is nothing more than the GOP. Polling has shown that there is no difference between the two of them at all and in realistic terms we see that they work in lockstep on pretty much everything.

Another fact: none of these people seemed to care too much about Bush's spending at all.

Third fact: xenophobia and racism is a large part of the force that drives the Tea Partiers. It is evident in the continued and never-ceasing attempts to prove that Obama is either a Muslim, a secret Muslim supporter, or 'not born in America.'

Conclusion: I was correct, and what more, my statements were based on facts. Any of those facts I listed, that you don't think are factual - say so. More than happy to provide attribution, but you should be warned: there are polls involved!

Quote:

It depends on just whom you have in mind. The fraction of our population paying no or very little taxes (relative to the proportional total of those collected) has grown significantly. There is lots of highly selective reporting of data on both sides here, and lots of self-serving deception in the rhetoric. The notion that every household making over $250K/year is among the uber rich is laughable, but that is the argument Obama has been making. It's easy to point to the wealth of those making a million or more each year, however taxing them more won't generate enough revenue to solve the problem. The real collections are from the great number of people in the $250K - $600K/year cadre and they are increasingly unwilling to do it - and they vote.


Those folks are grossly outnumbered by the rest of us. But, you are correct; sacrifice by any one group alone won't solve the problem.

That's why I recommend tax increases for EVERYONE - including myself - until our fiscal books are in order. I think our society would work better if more citizens had some skin in the game, and if more rich folks had much, much more skin in the game.

I think you realize - because you're not as far out there as many in your caucus - that tax increases are inevitable in our current situation. Already some of your more moderate Senators are coming to that conclusion. As I said above, it will be fun to watch the Tea Party turn its' sights on your side, once they start trying to compromise.

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 04:57 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
As an addendum to this, I wanted to point out that the Senate GOP is doing everything it possibly can to avoid having to vote on the House GOP spending bill. They have put Reid off 4 times in the last week, because they know that their own caucus won't support it and that the vote will lead to embarrassment and infighting between the House and Senate on your side.

Doesn't sound too much like conviction on the principles coming from the Senate GOP these days. In fact, it sounds like quite the opposite.

Reid is going to force this vote, so we can get it on record. The House GOP bill is full of all sorts of really unpopular stuff - such as zeroing out 24 million dollars of funding for Poison control centers, for god's sake - and the campaign ads will write themselves.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 05:46 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Uh, hello?!? You want to pin this on the Democrats?

What about Republican governors in many states, such as NJ, who actively stole money from their pension fund obligations in order to cut taxes?

The idea that the Dems are responsible for the pension problems we are currently seeing is laughable. Both parties are responsible for them.
I agree there's lots of responsibility to go around, but most of the state spending budget chicanery and nearly all of the union-driven increases in state employee benefits have come from the Democrats. Here in California my old friend Don Perata was the champion of payoffs to state employee unions in first the assembly and later the State Senate. In any event it is a new crop of Republican governors and Republican state legislators who appear to be driving the change , and I believe the continuing crises will sustain and perhaps empower them.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Fact: the 'tea party' is nothing more than the GOP. Polling has shown that there is no difference between the two of them at all and in realistic terms we see that they work in lockstep on pretty much everything.
Mostly true, though amusingly enough many Democrats - when it suits them - argue that the Tea Party will break up the GOP.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Another fact: none of these people seemed to care too much about Bush's spending at all.
Probably true. However, both were excessive and Obama makes Bush look like a piker.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Third fact: xenophobia and racism is a large part of the force that drives the Tea Partiers. It is evident in the continued and never-ceasing attempts to prove that Obama is either a Muslim, a secret Muslim supporter, or 'not born in America.'
I'll agree to a bit of Xenophobia mostly with respect to Muslims, but there are, in fact objective reasons and justifications for that. Their reluctance to assimilate has already become an acknowledged problem in the UK, France, and Germany. The racism bit is a contemptable red herring cast about by the race-baiting overseers in the continuing Democrat affirmative action/guilt plantation - something I believe causes real harm to African Americans.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Conclusion: I was correct, and what more, my statements were based on facts. Any of those facts I listed, that you don't think are factual - say so. More than happy to provide attribution, but you should be warned: there are polls involved!
Your "facts" aren't facts and they don't prove your conclusion. However, I'll give you credit for an unpersuasive attempt.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

That's why I recommend tax increases for EVERYONE - including myself - until our fiscal books are in order. I think our society would work better if more citizens had some skin in the game, and if more rich folks had much, much more skin in the game.
I won't argue with that, certainly not in principle. However, the tax increases are being demanded as an alternative to cost reductions in government and limitations of the expanded and positively corrupting influence of state employee unions on state legislatures. It is much harder for government and career politicians to reduce government costs than it is for them to raise taxes. I'll be willing t0 consider more taxes AFTER some concrete actions to reduce government spending and curtail the reach of public employee unions that seek to corrupt and usurp the normal powers and responsibilities of elected representatives of the people.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 05:53 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Here in California my old friend Don Perata was the champion of payoffs to state employee unions in first the assembly and later the State Senate.


Ewww, you're friends with that guy?!?! Maybe he's nice in person.

Quote:
Your "facts" arent facts and they don't prove your conclusion. However, I'll give you credit for an unpersuasive attempt.


To my facts, you said: Mostly true, Probably true, and 'I'll agree a bit.' So I'm obviously not that far off-base in your mind Laughing

Quote:


I won't argue with that, certainly not in principle. However, the tax increases are being demanded as an alternative to cost reductions in government and limitations of the expanded and positively corrupting influence of state employee unions on state legislatures.


I disagree about the state employee unions and their supposed 'corruption.' They corrupt nothing any more than corporations do, and actually, to a far lesser degree. For example, the Financial industry in 2009 and -10 spent over 1.4 BILLION dollars lobbying the Federal government. Billion. The unions spent around 100 million in that same time period. So, I think that you are conveniently forgetting about the elephant in the room here.

But, I am not demanding tax increases INSTEAD of spending cuts. I am suggesting both tax increases AND spending cuts. The two only work together; either one won't solve our problems.

Quote:
It is much harder for government and career politicians to reduce government costs than it is for them to raise taxes.


On the contrary, the modern Republican party has made it almost impossible to raise taxes. Here in CA we've been dealing with this for a decade now... on the Federal level you see the same thing.

Quote:
I'll be willing t0 consider more taxes AFTER some concrete actions to reduce government spending and curtail the reach of public employee unuins that seek to corrupt and usurp the normal powers and responsibilities of elected representatives of the people.


I already addressed the union issue. We'll reign them in after we reign private corps. in, whattya say?

You have to be willing to consider more taxes RIGHT NOW. The promise of being willing to do so in the future, IF some nebulous conditions are met, is worthless and you know it! The good news for your position is that Obama has already signaled the fact that he is willing to cut spending somewhat; are you willing to do your part?

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 06:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Well we don't disagree completely. I believe government spending reductions are needed "RIGHT NOW" just as you believe tax increases are needed "RIGHT NOW".

From Sarbanes Oxley to the Chris Dodd legislation and EPA's newfound authority, corporations have already been reined in to the extent that many industries on which we rely for bacic things like energy and for growth and employment in the economy are being stifled and paralyzed. Worse the looming government bond crisis scares them into hoarding their own cash. This aspect of the problem is already bad and your proposals will make it far worse.

Government unions have grown explosively during the past two decades and they are an obvious corrupting influence on local governments and School boards. They seek to usurp inherently governmental functions and they must be curtailed.

Obama's proposed "spending cuts" aren't cuts at all - merely slight (and largely trivial) reductions in proposed increases. The Democrats in the House wasted the first quarter of the current year with no attempt to even intreoduce a budget, and the recent proposal from the President calls for the largest deficit (and the largest increase in the deficit) in our history. This isn't serious.

It is good that we acknowledge at least enough common ground to discuss the subject instead of merely hurling the usual epithets. (However, sometimes you forget)

Don Perata is a nice enough guy - a professional pol and a Democrat to be sure. However, I am an easy-going and tolerant guy. We worked together on Alameda County Economic development when he was in the Legislature.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 06:24 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Well we don't disagree completely. I believe government spending reductions are needed "RIGHT NOW" just as you believe tax increases are needed "RIGHT NOW".


Yes, but governments at all levels are cutting spending - right now. Obama has proposed 50 billion in cuts as well as freezing growth in some areas and freezing pay raises for Federal workers. Various states, including CA, are cutting budgets heavily.

So, where are your guys? Where are you to step up with the tax increases? Are your words carefully designed to always push those increases into the future?

Quote:
From Sarbanes Oxley to the Chris Dodd legislation and EPA's newfound authority


The Supreme Court agreed with the EPA's authority. It has nothing to do with Obama or any Democrat. You can take complaints up with them Smile

Quote:
corporations have already been reined in to the extent that many industries on which we rely for bacic things like energy and for growth and employment in the economy are being stifled and paralyzed.


Yeah, these companies are so paralyzed, their making record profits. All the weight of those profits really has them quaking in their boots Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Worse the looming government bond crisis scares them into hoarding their own cash. This aspect of the problem is already bad and your proposals will make it far worse.


The GOP position has never been right about how certain events would move our economy in the past 30 years, why would you have us believe it now?

Quote:
Government unions have grown explosively during the past two decades and they are an obvious corrupting influence on local governments and School boards. They seek to usurp inherently governmental functions and they must be curtailed.


No word at all on the fact that the financial industry alone lobbies gov't to the tune of 10 times more than any union?

It's not convincing when on one hand you decry corruption by one group, and on the other, you decry... nothing at all. It's not even worth mentioning. Why would that position convince anyone that your recommendations should be followed?

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 06:29 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Even the firefighters in San Jose agreed to a 10% cut in pay and benefits. I think they're beginning to understand that government must reduce their deficits or the public will be against any more increase in taxes.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 06:59 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You are more than a bit one-sided here. The USSC indeed confirmed EPA's authority, but that doesn't make the administration's actions that stimulated the challenge either wise or beneficial. They are indeed harmful. Worse EPA has paralyzed industry for over a year with their still unreleased new rules. A similar story can be told about petroleum extraction. There are many excellent reasons for us to do more, but the Administratiuon appears to be against it as a matter of principle and merely misuses environmental and safety laws to curtail it - at a moment in which we really need much more.

Corporations are making profits, but the issue is they are not investing them because they cannot forecast the future actions of an overreaching government that is clearly hostile to then. Not a very good way to stimulate economic growth.

Saying the GOP has been wrong for over 30 years is simply stupid on your part. It also ignores the serious problem that runaway entitlements enacted by Democrats have inflicted on us. This doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 07:22 pm
@georgeob1,
It's stupid not to explore for oil in our country, but we can't just blame democrats for this short-sightedness. Even under republican administrations and congress, we didn't enough.

When will our government allow us to get oil out of our country? When it hits $15/gallon?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 07:35 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

You are more than a bit one-sided here. The USSC indeed confirmed EPA's authority, but that doesn't make the administration's actions that stimulated the challenge either wise or beneficial. They are indeed harmful.


The USSC confirmed the EPA's authority in this area during the Bush administration in 2007. Nothing the Obama admin has done in this area has been put forth to the USSC for review, at all.

So, factual error there on your part. And I'd say it's a big one.

Quote:
Worse EPA has paralyzed industry for over a year with their still unreleased new rules. A similar story can be told about petroleum extraction. There are many excellent reasons for us to do more, but the Administratiuon appears to be against it as a matter of principle and merely misuses environmental and safety laws to curtail it - at a moment in which we really need much more.


There are excellent reasons to do LESS drilling, George. The events in the Gulf have proven that there is little ability to stop a bad leak at the sorts of depths that modern companies work at. It is a matter of principle.

I grew up enjoying the Gulf and I actually give a **** about it.

Quote:
Corporations are making profits, but the issue is they are not investing them because they cannot forecast the future actions of an overreaching government that is clearly hostile to then. Not a very good way to stimulate economic growth.

Quote:
Saying the GOP has been wrong for over 30 years is simply stupid on your part.


Oh really?

Conservatives laud Reagan for cutting taxes and the revenue rise that followed, but the truth is that he majorly raised them on more than one occasion.

Conservatives predicted doom when Clinton raised taxes, but instead we saw the largest peacetime boom in years.

Conservatives predicted a boom when Bush cut taxes, but they were completely wrong.

Conservatives claimed that the financial markets and industry could 'self-regulate.' This clearly was idiocy of the highest order.

Conservatives predicted that TARP would never get paid back, but the vast majority of it has. What more, they forget that it was a Republican prez. who put it in place.

Conservatives predicted that the Stimulus bill wouldn't help the economy, but they were completely wrong on that one too.

In short: what have they been right about? Can you find a single economic prediction made by the Conservative wing of this country that has come true?!?!

Quote:
It also ignores the serious problem that runaway entitlements enacted by Democrats have inflicted on us. This doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

I'm not really trying to convince anyone of anything.


Obviously not.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 08:53 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The USSC confirmed the EPA's authority in this area during the Bush administration in 2007. Nothing the Obama admin has done in this area has been put forth to the USSC for review, at all.

So, factual error there on your part. And I'd say it's a big one.
What factual error ????? I didn't assert anything about when the USSC action took place. You are playing a foolish gotcha game and ******* it up in the process.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

There are excellent reasons to do LESS drilling, George.
What are they? The price of energy is certainly having a bad effect on the economy. The unrest in the Arab world is spooking the market. Some firm action here would have a dramatic and beneficial effect on both issues.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

OK.The events in the Gulf have proven that there is little ability to stop a bad leak at the sorts of depths that modern companies work at. It is a matter of principle.
If it is a matter of principle, then why did the Obama Administration recently approve a deep drilling permit? We have lots of other petroleum reserves that could be developed if the government would get out of the way.

As for the rest of the carefully selected half truths and worse, they are merely a litany of factoids you likely derived from your extensive study of various opinion pieces - not worthy of discussion.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Mar, 2011 08:58 pm
@georgeob1,
It's really foolish to not drill for oil when we have it in our own yard, and pay others for energy that's costing our economy a higher price at a time when we need to lower our national debt and trade deficit.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 12:04 am
@cicerone imposter,
Precisely. I agree.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 12:12 am
@cicerone imposter,
I thought you were opposed to drilling in ANWR.
Would you support it now?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Mar, 2011 09:21 am
@georgeob1,
Maybe I misunderstood you. When you wrote this:

Quote:
The USSC indeed confirmed EPA's authority, but that doesn't make the administration's actions that stimulated the challenge either wise or beneficial. They are indeed harmful.


What, specifically, where you referring to? What actions?

Quote:
Quote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:

There are excellent reasons to do LESS drilling, George.

What are they? The price of energy is certainly having a bad effect on the economy. The unrest in the Arab world is spooking the market. Some firm action here would have a dramatic and beneficial effect on both issues.


Drilling oil has bad environmental side effects. The gulf is still pretty fucked up and it's clear that we don't have the capacity or ability to stop bad leaks at that depth in any reasonable amount of time. The BP spill ALSO had bad effects, not only on our economy but on a large part of our water and beaches. You may have forgotten about it or ignore this fact, but I don't.

Oil prices are currently being driven up by speculators, because the price of oil isn't based on actual stocks or reserves, its' based on speculation. If we wanted to control the price of oil we could do so through regulation.

You know as well as I do that oil is a loser in the long run and that we should be focusing on the next generation of power plants: Nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal. I'll never get behind increased drilling, because it just increases dependence on a pollutive and inefficient source of energy.

So, those are the good reasons not to be in favor of more drilling at this time.

Quote:
If it is a matter of principle, then why did the Obama Administration recently approve a deep drilling permit? We have lots of other petroleum reserves that could be developed if the government would get out of the way.


The companies in question - one of which is a partner of BP, funnily enough - presented a plan to the gov't which had the sort of safety features that have been successful in stopping these things in the past, and agreed to much tighter regulation than we have seen in the past. Part of the delay was figuring out whether measures such as this would work. I don't advocate stopping ALL drilling in the gulf - that's not an option - but there's nothing wrong with making sure that new permits you hand out are going to lead to a safe situation.

Quote:
As for the rest of the carefully selected half truths and worse, they are merely a litany of factoids you likely derived from your extensive study of various opinion pieces - not worthy of discussion.


You've never made a habit of addressing points that are harmful to your position, so why should I expect you to start now?

I repeat - with emphasis: Conservatives have proven themselves wrong on fiscal issues throughout my entire life. Over and over again. Predictions that they make publicly don't come true. Explanations they give for things are false ones that don't hold up under any scrutiny. And yet, you still feel as if you have credibility on these issues. I can't understand why.

Cycloptichorn
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2011 07:51 am
Just a thought as I'm reading stuff about Wisconsin -- this might have some impact on Pawlenty's chances. Wisconsin and Minnesota tend to be about the same temperature (politically and otherwise), and the anti-union stuff going on in WI is really antagonizing some people who would otherwise vote Republican.

That's just MN and WI but I think part of the appeal of Pawlenty is the idea that he'd be able to deliver MN.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2011 08:04 am
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:



That's just MN and WI but I think part of the appeal of Pawlenty is the idea that he'd be able to deliver MN.

Except he won't deliver MN. He won by pluralities both times he was elected. He left the state in a fiscal mess. He acted like a little dictator in cutting the budget and his statements to conservatives the last months will alienate even more MN voters
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Mar, 2011 08:38 am
@parados,
I agree. This might be another nail in the coffin, presidential-bid-wise though.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2011 05:56 pm
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs/niemann/posts/2011/03/christoph_niemann.gif
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2011 06:28 pm
More on the "Pawlenty delivering MN" idea:

Quote:
James Kirkpatrick, who met Mr. Pawlenty last summer, became the first Republican county chairman in Iowa to support him. He said Mr. Pawlenty’s appeal included his ability to perform well in the Midwest, including Minnesota, which last voted for a Republican presidential candidate in 1972. “When other candidates come up,” Mr. Kirkpatrick said, “I ask them, ‘What states can you bring to the table?’ ”


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/us/politics/14pawlenty.html
0 Replies
 
 

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