The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

@realjohnboy,

If the city has to pay overtime to police to provide security, if the city has to pay for extra sanitation workers to clean up the trash, if there is any extra money being spent by a local govt because of the protests, then the protestors/demonstrators are responsible for those costs.
They should pay them.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

and by continuation, if they cannot pay the costs as determined by the governments, then they get jailed...

hmmmm.

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When other groups use the parks for a national day celebration, or a gay pride celebration, or the fourth of July, etc.--do you expect them to pay? Including police overtime for security reasons? I suggest that you're attempting to apply a special standard here, MM, and i suggest it comes as a result of doctrinal disagreement.

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@Rockhead,

No, they DONT get jailed.
They do however, get forced to leave whatever space they are using for their demonstration, be it a park, or a street, or any other public property.
If they can find private property where the property owner will allow them to protest, thats good.
If not, thats good also.

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@mysteryman,

says you.

now...

Or they have to pre-pay...

still using money to sort the game.

what if they don't want any "security" forces assigned to them?

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@Setanta,

No, I am not.
I said ANY group, and I mean that.
No matter what the event is.
If a private group wants to use public property for their demonstrations, protests, or celebrations, they should pay any and all costs associated with using that public property.

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@mysteryman,

I am not sure that many people here realize that Zuccotti Park in NYC is, in fact, not a public park. It is a mere 1/2 acre on privately owned property.

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@mysteryman,

Nothing like taking away more of our citizens rights to freedom of speech. And, you served in our military? What for?

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@mysteryman,

Are there some more constitutional (and human) rights,which you want people to get only against cash?

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@mysteryman,

In NYC, the OWS group is using private property for their encampment. Zuccotti Park is publicly accessible, but privately owned.

Quote:

On September 17, 2011, the "Occupy Wall Street" protest began using Zuccotti Park as a campground and staging area for their actions. Some of the protesters displayed a placard welcoming visitors to "Liberty Park", an informal return to a version of the park's original name. The organizers had originally planned to occupy One Chase Manhattan Plaza, but the plaza was closed.

Because Zuccotti Park is not a publicly owned space, it is not subject to ordinary public park curfew. New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said on September 28, 2011, that the NYPD could not bar protesters from Zuccotti Park since it is a public plaza that is required to stay open 24 hours a day. "In building this plaza, there was an agreement it be open 24 hours a day," Kelly said. "The owners have put out regulations [about what's allowed in park]. The owners will have to come in and direct people not to do certain things." A spokesperson for Brookfield Properties, the owner of the park, expressed concern: "Zuccotti Park is intended for the use and enjoyment of the general public for passive recreation. We are extremely concerned with the conditions that have been created by those currently occupying the park and are actively working with the City of New York to address these conditions and restore the park to its intended purpose."

On October 6, 2011, it was reported that Brookfield Office Properties, which owns Zuccotti Park, had issued a statement which said, "Sanitation is a growing concern ... Normally the park is cleaned and inspected every weeknight... because the protestors refuse to cooperate ... the park has not been cleaned since Friday, September 16th and as a result, sanitary conditions have reached unacceptable levels." To protect and clean the park, protesters volunteered to sweep the areas of the plaza and posted signs urging each other to avoid damaging the flower beds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuccotti_Park

Quote:

But this raises legitimate questions about how to balance the right of people to peacefully demonstrate–and most of what I’m reading indicates that, aside from the inevitable yahoos, this is in fact that–and the rights of the community. Even a relatively conscientiousness group occupying a park is going to turn it into a dump in four weeks. And that’s to say nothing of the fact that a community has been deprived of its park.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/zuccotti-park-cleanup-standoff/

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@mysteryman,

So, basically, you're in favor of shutting down the Fourth of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day . . . who do you think would be paying those tabs?

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@Setanta,

When local Tea Parties held rallies they had to pay for permits and services in (at least):

Richmond
Boston
Atlanta
Winston/Salem

In Nashville, the Tea Party was refused access to hold a rally at Legislative Plaza, the same place where Occupy Nashville has been camping for three weeks, without securing a permit.

Some of those Tea Parties are demanding reimbursement of the fees they were required to pay.

Quote:

“I guess we’ll be writing a check to the tea party people,” Councilman Bruce W. Tyler said Wednesday. “You can’t treat one group different from the other. It’s unfair.”

For the tea party to request the “same consideration, I believe, is fair and just,” Tyler added. “We’ve now hit the slippery slope that we never should have found ourselves on.”

Source

In virtually all instances the Tea Parties attempted to comply with all local ordinances and pay whatever fees were required. They also left at the end of the day and cleaned up whatever mess they made.

A special standard is being applied alright...in favor of Occupy.

Now that they have been encamped for weeks, city officials are afraid to attempt to disperse them because of explicit or implicit threats of violence

Occupy has not been required to file or pay for permits but they are costing the cities in which they camp large dollars:

NYC: $3.4 million in overtime costs alone
Boston: $2 million
Atlanta: $300,000
Minneapolis: $200,000
San Francisco: $100,000

Source

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@snood,

snood wrote:

Finn said:

Quote:
Not significantly, but let's say a lot more people are aware of income disparity.

Funny how you so casually concede the point and simultaneously dismiss it.

I suppose it might be funny if it were true.

I clearly dismissed the point, and addressing it for the sake of argument is hardly conceding it. It is making the argument that even if they have achieved what you claim, it's not much of an achievement and it didn't require the tactics they've employed. A double barrel shot if you will.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

So what, did you just want to come here to whine? It's not relevant to my point to MM, you know. Do you think people who use a park on the Fourth of July should have to pay? Did you note that the OWS folks are not in a public park?

Are you just attempting to stir the turd once again, about the only thing you consistently do well?

1 Reply

All this talk about who’s gonna pay for the demonstrations is interesting and certainly amusing, but I think it’s being perpetuated by those on the right as a diversion and smokescreen so as not to address what OWS is all about.

The rightwing is always talking about how they are against redistribution of wealth. These protests are about exactly that – but not the way the right sells it. The wealth has been redistributed from the bottom to the top, by way of three decades of trickle-down economic theory, see-no-evil deregulation and tax-cutting fervor.

The non-partisan CBO’s study recently made public shows that. The study is called “Trends in the Distribution of Household Income Between 1979 and 2007”. It shows that while income over those years has increased 18 percent for the lowest incomes and about 40 percent for the middle incomes, the top 1 percent increased by a jaw-dropping 275 percent.

But this isn’t what the republicans mean when they talk about redistribution of wealth. We’re supposed to envision all the poor “free-riders” who are stealing from the industrious “job-creators” (the way they like to characterize anyone who makes a million a year or more).

The rightwing argues that trying to influence how the pie is sliced is communist, or socialist, or “class-warfare”. They say the OWS protestors are just whiners. They are wrong because the system has been rigged so that the wealthy and corporations have undue influence over economic policy to make their share of the pie continue to increase by any means necessary.

I think OWS is helping to get us to see that the 99% have been victims of republican-style wealth distribution – stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. Rightwing pundits and everyone who tries to speak against the movement are all working overtime trying to discredit or dismiss OWS.

Here on A2K, right wing folks want to talk about ANYTHING but the real class-warfare that the rich have been waging on those who can’t defend themselves. So far it hasn’t worked on a national scale, and it ain’t gonna work here, either.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Occupy has not been required to file or pay for permits but they are costing the cities in which they camp large dollars

We arrest politicians who try to install pay to play schemes in our democracy. If you want to watch this country blow up fast all you need is for our leaders to claim that citizens must pay for the ability to protest our oppression.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

I would think that since you are such a advocate of free speech and an opponent of government attempting to decide who may engage in it, you would recognize that either the manner in which cities, like Nashville and Richmond, dealt with Tea Parties set a precedent for their dealing with OWS or was grossly unfair.

The issue of Occupy groups outstaying their welcome and costing cities considerable sums of money is not limited to the NYC crowd. Their brethern in other cities are occupying public parks.

I've no desire to stir the turd, but apparently I do have some success with it because any post from me directed to you, regardless of content, seems to, indeed, stir you up quite a bit.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

The issue of Occupy groups outstaying their welcome and costing cities considerable sums of money is not limited to the NYC crowd. Their brethern in other cities are occupying public parks

It is our country, and we pay the bills that the government runs up, so take the OWS funds out of my taxes just like we take out corporate welfare. My exercise of my democratic rights as at least as worthy of lines of expenditure as their lining their pockets is.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

I'm not stirred up, you flatter yourself. I was simply expressing my contempt for you strewing the ground with red herrings, an habitual practice of yours. I'd be interested to know upon what basis you have decided that i'm "such a [sic] advocate of free speech and an opponent of government attempting to decide who may engage in it . . ." That's not to say that i am or am not. But it's typical of you to drag in a platoon of straw men behind you.

I see no reason that i would recognize any such thing as you allege. Nashville and Richmond set precedents which Chicago and New York are bound to follow? I doubt that.

Your silly tirade here is typical of the irrelevant tripe with which you so commonly decorate threads. You have offered nothing to the point, and i suspect you just want to divert the conversation with your whine about the poor, abused tea baggers.

And by the way, you didn't answer my question. Do you think folks should have to pay for public facilities on the Fourth of July? If your answer is no, what line must be crossed before invoices are presented?

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Occupy has not been required to file or pay for permits but they are costing the cities in which they camp large dollars
We arrest politicians who try to install pay to play schemes in our democracy. If you want to watch this country blow up fast all you need is for our leaders to claim that citizens must pay for the ability to protest our oppression.

You'll note that I haven't endorsed any effort to make the Occupy movement pay for the ability to protest. I have pointed out, however, that our politicians in some cities did that very thing when it came to a protest expression with which they didn't agree. The country didn't blow up and none of our Free Speech champions here on A2K even noticed, let alone cared, because they too don't agree with the protest expression of the Tea Party

If permits for public gathering are constitutional they must be applied to all groups. The Mayor of Richmond has publicly stated that he is reluctant to address the continue presence of Occupy on public property, because he was part of the Civil Rights movement and is in favor of what they are doing. He had no problem making the Tea Party pay $10,000 to gather on public property.

Do you think this is immaterial to the topic under discussion?

I can see the sense in requiring permits for public gatherings, but if it doesn't pass constitutional muster then it shouldn't stand. Deciding which groups have the right to gather based on the political positions of elected officials doesn't pass constitutional muster and should not stand.

1 Reply

The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

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