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The Republican Nomination For President: The Race For The Race For The White House

 
 
roger
 
  3  
Reply Sun 23 Oct, 2011 09:48 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Me too. I don't at all feel I've the right to require someone else to be sort of a human incubator.
snood
 
  3  
Reply Sun 23 Oct, 2011 09:52 pm
@firefly,
Well said, Firefly.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 02:46 am
@snood,
All those who tend to wax lyrical about the rights of the unborn child, don't tend to be so bothered about the rights and welfare of the born child. If they did I might take them a bit more seriously.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 03:06 am
@izzythepush,
Some do. Not all.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 03:23 am
@roger,
I'll take your word for it Roger, I've not seen a lot of evidence of it myself, but that's not to say it doesn't happen.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 04:36 am
@firefly,
Quote:
If a fetus is not capable of viability outside the woman's body it is not independent of her body. Therefore, the woman is entitled to make a choice regarding her body, and that choice should include her right to a termination of the pregnancy.


And what, pray, would happen if the feminists got ALL the women to combine together to go on fertility (sex) strike in order to improve their station in life. Aristophenes, in 411 BC, satirised the matter in Lysistrata. The new media of personal communications, which have been so effective in the election of Mr Obama and the so called Arab Spring, is ideally suited for such a political agenda. And there are many powerful arguments at the personal as well as the general level for such an argument to be made.

The businesses associated with pre and post natal care would be out of action within months and, as each year went by, more and more economic investment would become redundant and schools would gradually disappear starting with the first year primary schools and working upwards. There are only 25 years to wait, which is a blink of the eye in these matters, before defence becomes the responsibility of a Dad's Army. But that wouldn't arise because everything would have been burned to the ground long before that as the DOW fell off the bottom end of the scale.

You silly woman you.

And for women the improvement of their station in life has no known upper limit so such an agenda could not even be allowed to get started in case it snowballed.

It is a marvellous irony that pro-abortionists are indulging their childlike fantasies on the basis of the playing field that the Roman Catholic Church constructed for them on which they can console themselves that such a thing won't happen just as the fur trade consoled itself when the first campaigners protested fur coats.

Have you any idea what concessions women could get if they went on a mass sex and fertility strike which would not even need to be anywhere near 100% solid to throw the government into a muck sweat. And the militants would have the USSC and the likes of Mr Cyrus Vance Jnr on their side. Wouldn't they????? They could tell all the men to take their little semen squirting dickies in hand. One militant has already announced on national TV in the presence of her ex-husband that all she ever felt was a "little local irritation". (smirking obligatory). She then decamped to a seaside spa with her lady friend and as far as I know is still there. She took control of her body as the USSC advised her to do.

The feminist argument is predicated on only a few women buying their argument and thus their sensational aspect and attention grabbing novelty would be at risk if all women did. And, according to Kant's Categorical Imperitive, they of necessity must desire that to have any grown up reasons for their project.

Are you making an argument firefly which is only intended to apply to superior ladies such as yourself who have majored in an 'ology and are hopeful of a career in Media. What would Darwin say about that my dear? Or Mr Dawkins? I feel sure that as elitists, the both, they would say that the US was digging a demographic pit for itself.

As no country would ever step into such a pit you ladies would be required to report to a local reproduction unit to be impregnated by whichever chaps happened to be available who passed certain minimal biological tests.



spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 04:49 am
@roger,
Quote:
I don't at all feel I've the right to require someone else to be sort of a human incubator.


Well roger--you can afford such little sentimental tweetings because creating human incubators has been done for you and you can reap all the advantages of it having been whilst at the same time distancing yourself from the sordid process in that righteous, infantile and irresponsibly superior tone.

No wonder the male WASP is going out of fashion in the US. I don't think many of the immigrants sweeping north share your ladies magazine ideas. What a prospect is Mr Obama v Mr Cain.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 05:04 am
@spendius,
I can hardly wait for the down thumbing to begin.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 05:13 am
@spendius,
Quote:
And what, pray, would happen if the feminists got ALL the women to combine together to go on fertility (sex) strike in order to improve their station in life?


I imagine when that day dawns, David Icke will be crowned King of the Universe.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 06:26 am
@izzythepush,
It has already partially dawned. The 'ology major types have fewer babies than their sisters in the trailer parks and ghettoes.

It has been said many times, as Ted Hughes said in Shakespeare and the Goddess of Complete Being, that men are envious and awed by the creative principle of females. So reducing women's fertility to an economic determinant and a dissection table specimen to be cut and chopped at is probably par for the course for such men as are chosen to sit in the highest councils.

It is sad though to see women participating in such an anti-woman agenda merely because it is a convenience for them or makes them sound clever to those whose education has been stunted.

It is obvious that women are ashamed of their abortions from the secrecy with which they surround the procedure. The mystical sanctity which traditionally surrounds the pregnant woman is being reduced to a materialistic calculation. A Deal.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 06:28 am
@spendius,
"Man has invented his doom,
First step was touching the moon."

Bob Dylan. Licence to Kill.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 06:48 am
@spendius,
There is a famous exception to the secrecy--

Quote:
Who is 'Jane Roe'?
NORMA MCCORVEY

Editor's note: The following is an interview CNN.com conducted with Norma McCorvey in 1997 leading up to the 25-year anniversary of the Roe v. Wade ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court.

(CNN) -- Norma McCorvey won't be celebrating the 25th anniversary of the historic Roe vs. Wade decision that legalized abortion.

McCorvey is "Jane Roe," the pseudonym she assumed to remain anonymous as the lead plaintiff in the case that legalized abortion in the United States.

"I'm very sad (about the anniversary)," she told CNN Interactive in a telephone interview. "But this year, I've got so much to do, I don't have time to sit down and be sad."

Once an abortion-rights supporter, the 50-year-old McCorvey has switched sides: She's now a vocal anti-abortion activist. She has started a ministry called Roe No More to fight against abortion rights with the aim of creating a mobile counseling center for pregnant women in Dallas.

She began her association with one of the United States' most contentious and volatile sociopolitical issues in 1970, when she became the lead plaintiff in the class-action lawsuit filed to challenge the strict anti-abortion laws in Texas.

The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, which handed down its controversial ruling on January 22, 1973. The decision legalized the right to an abortion in all 50 states and sparked a political debate that remains charged to this day.

However, McCorvey, who was 21 when the case was filed and was on her third pregnancy, never had an abortion and gave birth to a girl, who was given up for adoption.

McCorvey went public with her identity in the 1980s and wrote a book about her life titled "I Am Roe: My Life, Roe v. Wade, and Freedom of Choice."

In the book, McCorvey, a ninth-grade dropout, describes a tough life, explaining that she suffered physical and emotional abuse as a child, spent some time in reform school in Gainesville, Texas, and was raped as a teen-ager. A husband whom she married at age 16 later beat her. She also tells of her alcohol and drug abuse, and experiences with lovers of both sexes.

Her first child, Melissa, was raised by her mother; her second child was raised by the father, and the couple agreed that McCorvey would never contact her.

She drifted through a series of dead-end jobs, including work as a bartender and a carnival barker. Once she went public with her story, she worked in several clinics where abortions were performed and did some public speaking, garnering publicity and a little bit of celebrity.


As I said yesterday--mature reflection can change the mind. I hope the kid she didn't abort in now an NFL wide receiver.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 10:28 am
@spendius,
I repeat...

If a fetus is not capable of viability outside the woman's body it is not independent of her body--it is still a part of her body. Therefore, the woman is entitled to make a choice regarding her body, and that choice should include her right to a termination of the pregnancy. That Constitutional right is determined by her right to privacy.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about in bringing up sex strikes or feminism--neither are related to this issue, which simply pertains to a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy prior to the time of fetal viability, if she so chooses, and to have that medical procedure performed in a legal and safe manner.

The alternative to a legal abortion is an illegal or self induced abortion.
Quote:
The World Health Organization (WHO) reports that each year nearly 42 million women faced with unintended pregnancies have abortions, of which 20 million are unsafe, mostly in countries where abortion is illegal. According to WHO and Guttmacher, approximately 68,000 women die annually as a result of complications of unsafe abortion; and between two million and seven million women each year survive unsafe abortion but sustain long-term damage or disease (incomplete abortion, infection (sepsis), haemorrhage, and injury to the internal organs, such as puncturing or tearing of the uterus). They also concluded abortion is safe in countries where it's legal, but dangerous in countries where it's outlawed and performed clandestinely. The WHO reports that in developed regions, nearly all abortions (92%) are safe, whereas in developing countries, more than half (55%) are unsafe.According to WHO statistics, the risk rate for unsafe abortion is 1/270; according to other sources, unsafe abortion is responsible for one in eight maternal deaths. Worldwide, 48% of all induced abortions are unsafe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion


More to the point, the issue in this thread is why the Republican candidates are even discussing abortion, since it's legality rests on a Supreme Court decision, and it has little to do with anyone's qualifications for the highest office in the Executive Branch of the government. Abortion is currently legal in this country, and anyone elected to the Presidency must uphold that legality.
But these Republican candidates are apparently voicing a broader strategy that includes trying to control the judiciary as a way of promoting their social values agenda, and I personally find that frightening in terms of threatening the separation of powers in our government.
Quote:
The New York Times
October 23, 2011
Republicans Turn Judicial Power Into a Campaign Issue
By ADAM LIPTAK and MICHAEL D. SHEAR

WASHINGTON — Republican presidential candidates are issuing biting and sustained attacks on the federal courts and the role they play in American life, reflecting and stoking skepticism among conservatives about the judiciary.

Gov. Rick Perry of Texas favors term limits for Supreme Court justices. Representatives Michele Bachmann of Minnesota and Ron Paul of Texas say they would forbid the court from deciding cases concerning same-sex marriage. Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker, and former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania want to abolish the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, calling it a “rogue” court that is “consistently radical.”

Criticism of “activist judges” and of particular Supreme Court decisions has long been a staple of political campaigns. But the new attacks, coming from most of the Republican candidates, are raising broader questions about how the legal system might be reshaped if one of them is elected to the White House next year.

The complaints are in line with the candidates’ general opposition to federal authority. Like the elected branches of the federal government, they say, the federal judiciary has become too powerful and intrusive.

“If you want to send a signal to judges that we are tired of them feeling that these elites in society can dictate to us,” Mr. Santorum said at an event in Ames, Iowa, “then you have to fight back. I will fight back.”

Many of the candidates’ proposals concerning the federal courts would, even with Congressional backing, face daunting constitutional obstacles. Yet Congress can limit spending on the courts, short of cutting judges’ salaries, and it may well be able to narrow the jurisdiction of the federal courts in important ways.

The candidates’ criticism reflects a growing desire among conservatives for a return to a court system that they say the country’s founders envisioned.

The political calculus is similar, too. The rise of the Tea Party in states like Iowa and South Carolina has created a receptive audience for candidates who raise doubts about whether the court system is hindering the causes that these voters believe in.

“These threats go far beyond normal campaign season posturing,” said Bert Brandenburg, executive director of Justice at Stake, a research and advocacy group that seeks to protect judicial independence. “They sound populist, but the proposal is to make courts answer to politicians and interest groups.”

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, has so far shied away from the far-reaching criticisms of his rivals. At a conservative forum in South Carolina, he dismissed the idea of a Congressional confrontation with the Supreme Court over abortion, saying, “I’m not looking to create a constitutional crisis.”

But his rivals have shown no such reluctance in attacking a federal court system in which their side has achieved significant victories.

The Supreme Court delivered the presidency to George W. Bush, interpreted the Second Amendment to guarantee an individual right to bear arms and allowed corporations and unions to spend unlimited amounts of money in elections. And many Republicans are looking to the Supreme Court for vindication in the political battle with President Obama over his health care overhaul.

The Republican candidates have focused their anger at court rulings on social issues like abortion, same-sex marriage and the role of religion in public life. Those issues hold the potential to fire up the party’s base and to provide crucial support in the primaries.

“There’s an even more dramatic overstep on the part of the courts now,” said Marjorie Dannenfelser, the president of the Susan B. Anthony List, a conservative legal advocacy group. “With the grass-roots revolution on the ground and the Tea Party movement, there’s a desire for a return back to first principles.”

“I don’t think it’s an anticourt movement,” Ms. Dannenfelser added. “It’s a purifying of the court — trying to return it to where it should be.”

Hogan Gidley, a senior adviser to Mr. Santorum, said that on the campaign trail, the courts issue plays well with “those who care about the Constitution and the legal system.” Mr. Gidley added: “They move to the edge of their chairs. They want to know what he’s going to do with the court system. It absolutely resonates.”

In attacking the courts, the Republican candidates sometimes seem to hedge their vows to remain faithful to the Constitution. Many of their proposals aimed at curtailing the power of the courts would require the document to be amended.

Section 1 of Article III, for instance, confers life tenure on federal judges, saying they “shall hold their offices during good behavior.” But Mr. Perry, in his book “Fed Up!,” wrote approvingly of proposals “to institute term limits on what are now lifetime appointments for federal judges, particularly those on the Supreme Court or the circuit courts, which have so much power.”

Whatever the difficulty of achieving that change, it is not without support in legal circles. “Perry’s idea has been advanced by me and numerous other academic critics of the court,” said Paul D. Carrington, a law professor at Duke. “On this point, he is absolutely right.”

In his book, Mr. Perry also discussed allowing Congress to override Supreme Court decisions by a two-thirds vote. This too would require a constitutional amendment, assuming that the power of judicial review established in Marbury v. Madison in 1803 continues to be accepted.

But the Marbury decision, which gave the Supreme Court the last word in interpreting the Constitution, has its critics. Mr. Gingrich, for instance, told the Values Voter Summit in October that “judicial supremacy is factually wrong, it is morally wrong and it is an affront to the American system of self-government.”

Mr. Gingrich, joined by Mrs. Bachmann and Mr. Paul, has called for limiting the federal courts’ ability to hear certain kinds of cases. Whether that would be constitutional is hard to assess.

“The question of the extent of Congress’s power to control the jurisdiction of the federal courts is one of the most contested and unsettled in constitutional law,” said Vicki C. Jackson, a law professor at Harvard.

Mrs. Bachmann and Mr. Paul have taken an aggressive stance. “We have it within our authority to decide what judges can rule on and what they can’t,” Mrs. Bachmann said in Iowa in April. Mr. Paul has written that “Congress could statutorily remove whole issues like gay marriage from the federal judiciary.”

Section 2 of Article III of the Constitution provides that the Supreme Court generally “shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.”

Section 1 of the article suggests that Congress may have even more power over the lower federal courts: “The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.”

Still, the suggestions from Mr. Gingrich and Mr. Santorum concerning the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which hears cases from federal district courts in nine Western states, are particularly bold. In February, Mr. Santorum told a Tea Party group in South Carolina that he would “sign a bill tomorrow to eliminate the Ninth Circuit,” adding: “That court is rogue. It’s a pox on the western part of our country.”

Criticism of the Ninth Circuit as too liberal is commonplace, and calls to split it into two or more parts have been floated for decades. But the idea of leaving the western third of the nation without a federal appeals court of its own appears to be a new one.

And although the Constitution forbids Congress from cutting federal judges’ pay, Mr. Gingrich has proposed ways that the power of the purse could be used to discipline that court.

“Congress can say, ‘All right, in the future, the Ninth Circuit can meet, but it will have no clerks,’ ” Mr. Gingrich told the Values Voter Summit. “ ‘By the way, we aren’t going to pay the electric bill for two years. And since you seem to be rendering justice in the dark, you don’t seem to need your law library, either.’ ”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/24/us/politics/republicans-turn-judicial-power-into-a-campaign-issue.html






cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 10:35 am
@firefly,
firefly, Another excellent post. The conservatives claim they are the party of less government intrusion into private lives, but they lie again.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 11:49 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

And to some of us the unborn kid is a living person. So you are agreeing that abortion is murder if we are justified in that view. And thus okay by you.

You can only distinguish between murder and abortion on the assumption that the unborn kid is not a living person. So say the kid is not a living person, as you must do or be found sanctioning murder, and then explain where the line is when the unborn kid becomes a living person. From a scientific point of view.


Save your breath spendius.

CI is incapable of or unwilling to understand this point.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 12:27 pm
@firefly,
A person in intensive care is not viable independently. You spend billions on keeping old dodderers alive so doctors etc can have well paid jobs and you destroy millions of unborn kids who made it past the interface lottery.

How many of us must wonder whether we survived a family debate.

Sex strikes are related to your sacred principle of women having control over their bodies. They don't. They are cultural atrefacts. It's like claiming to be free because you can paint your front door any colour you want.

What women do illegally is neither here nor there. One might address why they do it.

You are reducing the unborn kid to the status of a cyst. It is what it says about us all that is important.

And you reduce the status of the father to a foot pump. Which then makes Gomez vs. Perez look stupid. Or Roe Wade.

Just think how popular the Roman Catholic Church would be if it gave in to the demands of libertines and we only had the ceremonies. Why does it resist such a temptation?
TheLeapist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 12:29 pm
@spendius,
The Republic Race for president sure is interesting...

*cough*
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 12:42 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Yes, the unborn is a potential living person, but what have you done for the already living? I'd like to hear about your morals about the living?
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 12:46 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
A person in intensive care is not viable independently.

That statement is not necessarily true. Not everyone in intensive care is on life supports. It is also not relevant.

The fetus doesn't have to be capable of viability without artificial aids, but it must be capable of viability, with or without such aids, outside of utero. Otherwise it has no independent existence, it is a part of the woman's body.

It's not just women who are entitled to have control over their bodies, and the medical procedures they elect to have performed, men are equally entitled to such control over their own bodies. These are private matters in which government should not interfere.

Why don't you start another thread on abortion, if that's what you want to discuss. I fail to see the connection between what you are talking about and the Republican nomination for President.


cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 24 Oct, 2011 12:51 pm
@spendius,
Your attempts to play the shell game about the unborn with your silly examples only shows your ignorance about the topic under discussion.
0 Replies
 
 

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