The Fallacy of the War on Terror

hobitbob wrote:

The procedure I reccomend has yet to be tried. Your solution has been shown to lead to increases in violence.
The situation relating to terrorism is in no way similar to war between nation states.

WRONG WRONG WRONG

Boiling the ocean has never been tried. Who knows what benefits that might bestow?

My solution has been tried successfully among nation states; in particular it has been tried successfully by the US and other nation states. The consequences were not an increase but rather a reduction in violence.

But the procedure you recommend has been tried, many many times and has failed many many times; and, it has usually ended in an increase not a decrease in violence. The jews spent almost 1,800 years trying it over and over again, expecting that eventually it would accomplish a different result. It never did. The jews were not a nation state throughout that 1,800 year period of their failures repeatedly trying your recommended procedure. It earned them worse each time it was tried. One does not discourage a bully with appeasement; one stops a bully with a punch in his nose.

Chamberlain tried appeasement and failed. Wilson and Roosevelt tried it too and failed. Oh, you say that was a nation states thing. You claim, but offer zero evidence to support your claim, that "The situation relating to terrorism is in no way similar to war between nation states."

What evidence do you have to offer a rational expectation that your method will not fail this time because we are dealing with terrorism aided and abetted by numerous competing nation states, and some of their inhabitants, hoping their aiding and abetting will protect and/or profit them?

"There are some people who think that if they keep feeding the alligators they will be the last to be eaten."

All you have offered is your claim: while there is no evidence of a successful trial, just do it because you say it, "has yet to be tried". I've never eaten broken glass, but I don't think I'll try that either.

Well, trial and error worked well for Thomas Edison, why not for you? BECAUSE EDISON DID NOT RISK HIS SURVIVAL WITH EACH FAILURE, HE GAINED KNOWLEDGE TO APPLY TO THE NEXT TRIAL.

Alas, you appear to be another victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality. Correction, you appear to be your own unique victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality if it "has yet to be tried".

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Re: Evil

pistoff wrote:

"The evil doers must be brought to justice." Dubya

I suggest that Dubya start with Ashcroft-Gestapo.

You remind me of the musical "76 Trombones". In that musical a bunch of salesman sing a song about their various sales methods. One salesman keeps repeating the refrain: "but you got to know the territory".

The fact is, pist, your repeated refrain about the gestapo, reveals your ignorance of the gestapo. Just a hint, but I bet I'm wasting my time on you. The gestapo jailed innocent people. The gestapo beat up innocent people. The gestapo tortured innocent people. The gestapo beat innocent people to death. The gestapo shot innocent people. The gestapo aided and abetted the nazis SS's killing of millions of people, and the starvation of millions more.

Bush and Ashcroft among others are trying to save you--save your ass. Is your ass worth saving?

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Quote:

WRONG WRONG WRONG

Boiling the ocean has never been tried. Who knows what benefits that might bestow?

What?

Quote:

My solution has been tried successfully among nation states; in particular it has been tried successfully by the US and other nation states. The consequences were not an increase but rather a reduction in violence.

the current world situation tends to contradict your assertion.

Quote:

But the procedure you recommend has been tried, many many times and has failed many many times; and, it has usually ended in an increase not a decrease in violence.

Care to point out these times?

Quote:

The jews spent almost 1,800 years trying it over and over again, expecting that eventually it would accomplish a different result. It never did. The jews were not a nation state throughout that 1,800 year period of their failures repeatedly trying your recommended procedure. It earned them worse each time it was tried.

Again, do you haev any idea what you are talking about?

Quote:

One does not discourage a bully with appeasement; one stops a bully with a punch in his nose.

Or, alternatively, one corrects those factors which lead to bullying.

Quote:

Chamberlain tried appeasement and failed. Wilson and Roosevelt tried it too and failed. Oh, you say that was a nation states thing. You claim, but offer zero evidence to support your claim, that "The situation relating to terrorism is in no way similar to war between nation states."

Sigh..here we go again: From Previous Post

Organizations like Islamic Jihad, hamas, al-Quaeda, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, etc....are non state actors, and are not dependant on any single source of funding or of personnel. As a consequence of this unique status, "traditional" solutions like the one you advocate tend to be ineffective. Al-Quaeda is not a governmental entity. You can not launch a cruise missile against it. You cannot declare war upon it. These sorts of organizations neither control nation states, nor are they dependent upon them. You are entertaining a faulty conceptual model which likens these organizations to nations. This conceptual model is useless, and is the reason you seem to not understand my arguments.

The conceptual model you have embraced is that of the 1980s concept of state sponsored terrorism, of which Libya and Iran and Iraq were the primary sources. If these models were still valid, then yes, one could in theory end the "terror" problem by attacking the nations. Unfortunately for your conceptual model, it would seem that this sort of terrorism declined in the early 1990s. The al-Quaeda model began to fill the gap since then. IN this model, a "leader" in Algeria (for example) may serve an executive function, receiving funding from private and corporate (including some nation states)donors and dispatching the funding to others in Spain (again, as an example), who communicate with other individuals in Finland who are in contact with an individual in Berlin who is nominally in charge of a small cadre in Budapest planning an assault on LA using a group of operatives in "sleeper" status in Laramie. Chances are the group in Laramie and the man in Algeria have never met, and don't even know each other's identities. How would your solution address this scenario? This is the face of modern terrorism.

Quote:

All you have offered is your claim: while there is no evidence of a successful trial, just do it because you say it, "has yet to be tried". I've never eaten broken glass, but I don't think I'll try that either.

Hmmm.....don't let me stop you.

Quote:

Well, trial and error worked well for Thomas Edison, why not for you? BECAUSE EDISON DID NOT RISK HIS SURVIVAL WITH EACH FAILURE, HE GAINED KNOWLEDGE TO APPLY TO THE NEXT TRIAL.

Again, what on earth are you taking about?

Quote:

Alas, you appear to be another victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality. Correction, you appear to be your own unique victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality if it "has yet to be tried".

Right....

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Re: Evil

ican711nm wrote:

pistoff wrote:
"The evil doers must be brought to justice." Dubya

I suggest that Dubya start with Ashcroft-Gestapo.

You remind me of the musical "76 Trombones". In that musical a bunch of salesman sing a song about their various sales methods. One salesman keeps repeating the refrain: "but you got to know the territory".

The fact is, pist, your repeated refrain about the gestapo, reveals your ignorance of the gestapo. Just a hint, but I bet I'm wasting my time on you. The gestapo jailed innocent people. The gestapo beat up innocent people. The gestapo tortured innocent people. The gestapo beat innocent people to death. The gestapo shot innocent people. The gestapo aided and abetted the nazis SS's killing of millions of people, and the starvation of millions more.

Bush and Ashcroft among others are trying to save you--save your ass. Is your ass worth saving?

So the Patriot acts I and II, the acts of oppression occurring in Iraq and Afgahistan, where civilians are killed quite frequently, the illegal detention of US citizens like Padilla, the harrassment of families like those in Castle Rock Co. falsely and slanderously accused of being terrorists by Ashcroft, and the numerous men of near eastern descent illegally held without charge after 11th September are all figments of our imagination? You really need to get out more!

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hobitbob wrote:

Quote:

WRONG WRONG WRONG

Boiling the ocean has never been tried. Who knows what benefits that might bestow?

What?

Too subtle for you?

hobitbob wrote:

the current world situation tends to contradict your assertion.

No it doesn't. WWI lasted 4 years. WWII lasted 4 years. The rectification of Japan took more than 7 years. The rectification and reconstruction of Germany took about the same number of years. You appear to have the patience of an infant.

hobitbob wrote:

Care to point out these times?

I did above (and below) many times. Go back to my palestine history post and read from there.

hobitbob wrote:

Again, do you haev any idea what you are talking about?

Yes, do you? I've explained this previously too.

hobitbob wrote:

Or, alternatively, one corrects those factors which lead to bullying.

Yes, or at least tries to. BUT WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THE EXISTING BULLIES WHO ARE BULLYING YOU WHILE YOU ARE ENGAGED IN YOUR SEARCH FOR AND THE REPRESSION OF THOSE FACTORS THAT LEAD TO BULLYING?

hobitbob wrote:

Organizations like Islamic Jihad, hamas, al-Quaeda, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, etc....are non state actors, and are not dependant on any single source of funding or of personnel. ...
... Chances are the group in Laramie and the man in Algeria have never met, and don't even know each other's identities. How would your solution address this scenario? This is the face of modern terrorism.

This diatribe is not an explanation of why you think the two solution (short term and long term) won't work this time. It's just a description of what has been experienced before. During WWII there were Japanese and German agents running all over America and other free allied countries attempting to sabotage our joint war efforts to defeat them. They didn't succeed.

hobitbob wrote:

[Again, what on earth are you taking about?

Again, too subtle for you?

hobitbob wrote:

Quote:
Alas, you appear to be another victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality. Correction, you appear to be your own unique victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality if it "has yet to be tried".

Right....

All right! Wonderful! We finally have arrived at the real basis of your argument. You are your own unique victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality if what is desired "has yet to be tried."

Question

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Quote:

the current world situation tends to contradict your assertion.
No it doesn't. WWI lasted 4 years. WWII lasted 4 years. The rectification of Japan took more than 7 years. The rectification and reconstruction of Germany took about the same number of years. You appear to have the patience of an infant.

Again, please explain why you think WWII has any possible similarities to the current situation.

Quote:

I did above (and below) many times. Go back to my palestine history post and read from there.

I don't see what your Palestine history post has to do with anything.

Quote:

Again, do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Yes, do you? I've explained this previously too.

Then you have done a marvelous job of disguising any idea that you may be attempting to share.

Quote:

Or, alternatively, one corrects those factors which lead to bullying. Yes, or at least tries to. BUT WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THE EXISTING BULLIES WHO ARE BULLYING YOU WHILE YOU ARE ENGAGED IN YOUR SEARCH FOR AND THE REPRESSION OF THOSE FACTORS THAT LEAD TO BULLYING?

a) Repression is never a good idea.
b) randomly killing people is probably not the best way to handle things. Wink

Quote:

This diatribe is not an explanation of why you think the two solution (short term and long term) won't work this time. It's just a description of what has been experienced before. During WWII there were Japanese and German agents running all over America and other free allied countries attempting to sabotage our joint war efforts to defeat them. They didn't succeed.

Who do you see as the equivalents to Japan or Germany? Do you understand the difference between nation states and non-state actors?

Quote:

Again, what on earth are you taking about?
Again, too subtle for you?

Must be, since I have no idea what you are talking about half the time.

Quote:

All right! Wonderful! We finally have arrived at the real basis of your argument. You are your own unique victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality if what is desired "has yet to be tried."

This would be another of those times. I wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse?

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?
"You are your own unique victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality if what is desired "has yet to be tried." "

Hmmm... A desire cannot be a reality because desire is merely a thought; a wish. If something has not been tried that something cannot be a reality because it has not been tried and proven successful. Are most of us a victim of our own desires if those desires do not become realities?

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hobitbob wrote:

... I have no idea what you are talking about half the time.

Quote:

You are your own unique victim of the fallacy that desire equals reality if what is desired "has yet to be tried."

Translation
You are your own unique victim of a fallacy. The fallacy you are a victim of is: Whatever you desire to make a reality, you can probably make a reality, if no one has as yet failed to make that desire a reality.

hobitbob wrote:

This would be another of those times. I wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse?

I am intrigued by the fact that you don't understand half of what I right.

I checked your profile.

I thought your profile might help me understand why you don't understand half of what I right.

Perhaps it's our age difference and consequent experience difference that is causing your problem.

I was born in 1931, the same year shintoist Japan attacked China.

I was 8 in 1939 when nazis Germany attacked Poland.

I was 10 in 1941 when shintoist Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

I was 14 in 1945 when two atomic bombs were dropped and WWII ended.

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Ahhh....
"Ah but we were so much older then; we're younger than that now." B.Dylan

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Re: Ahhh....

pistoff wrote:

"Ah but we were so much older then; we're younger than that now." B.Dylan

Clearly, Dylan's genome is very different than mine. Smile

I infer that means your genome is very different than mine too.

Well, I'm told we all have to carry through life our own kind of personal, metaphorical albatross. Sad

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I'll try again.

Or, alternatively, one corrects those factors which lead to bullying.

Yes, or at least tries to.

BUT WHAT DOES ONE DO ABOUT THE EXISTING BULLIES WHO ARE BULLYING YOU WHILE YOU ARE ENGAGED IN YOUR SEARCH FOR AND THE CORRECTION OF THOSE FACTORS THAT LEAD TO ONE'S BULLYING?

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Well, we could all just learn to live in the 1400's, speak arabic, abuse our women and live under shia law...that would be the alternative our current enemies would have us do.

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Ah. to be back in Crawford again.

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Desire
ican, how about posint your 1st name? Mine is Phil.

Do you not understand, "so much older then..." ?

The USA could also stop it's Imperialism of the Middle East.

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Re: Desire

pistoff wrote:

ican, how about posint your 1st name? Mine is Phil.

Phil, Mike ... can. Smile

pistoff wrote:

Do you not understand, "so much older then..."

It's too imprecise! Among other things, I'm a retired electrical engineer. So I prefer "twice the age of".

I was 17 in 1948 when the Jews declared their independence from the rest of Palestine.

I was 36 in 1967 when the Israelies conquered all of Palestine, and when bob was born.

I am 72 in 2003 when bob is 36.

pistoff wrote:

The USA could also stop it's Imperialism of the Middle East.

www.m-w.com

Quote:

Main Entry: im·pe·ri·al·ism
Pronunciation: im-'pir-E-&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1845
1 : imperial government, authority, or system
2 : the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas; broadly : the extension or imposition of power, authority, or influence <union imperialism>
- im·pe·ri·al·ist /-list/ noun or adjective
- im·pe·ri·al·is·tic /-"pir-E-&-'lis-tik/ adjective
- im·pe·ri·al·is·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Perhaps they'll stop that after you stop "beating your wife." Or perhaps you have stopped and haven't notified the US state department yet. By the way, not having a wife to beat is no excuse for your not stopping beating her. Smile

Is my sarcasm and its meaning too subtle for you?

Blaming the victim or the friends of the victim for the horrors perpetrated by the victimizer is at best irrational and at worst evil. Blaming the victim or the friends of the victim for retaliating in self-defense in an effort to minimize future horrors anticipated to be perpetrated by the victimizer is at best irrational and at worst evil.

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Re: Desire

ican711nm wrote:

Blaming the victim or the friends of the victim for the horrors perpetrated by the victimizer is at best irrational and at worst evil.

Blaming the victim or the friends of the victim for retaliating in self-defense in an effort to minimize future horrors anticipated to be perpetrated by the victimizer is at best irrational and at worst evil.

What are the major moral, ethical, and practical differences among the following American Actions?

A. Bosnia:
(1) Murder? Thousands of Muslims (e.g., Bosnians) murdered by Serbians;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Muslims threatened to be murdered by Serbians;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Bosnia? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders by Serbians by separating Serbians from Muslims;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support of Murderers? Russians supported Serbians.

B. Afghanistan
(1) Murder? Thousands of Americans (e.g., occupants of World Trade Buildings, Pentagon, three airliners) murdered by al Qaeda;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Americans threatened to be murdered by al Qaeda;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Afghanistan? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders of Americans by minimizing al Qaeda;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support of Murderers? Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Libia, Egypt, North Korea, Iraq etc. supported al Qaeda.

C. Iraq
(1) Murder? Thousands of Muslims (e.g., Shiites, Kurds, Kuwaities) murdered by Saddam Husseiners;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Muslims threatened to be murdered by Saddam Husseiners;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Iraq? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders of people worlwide by minimizing Saddam Husseiners;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support? France, Germany, Russia supported Saddam Husseiners.

D.Israel
(1) Murder? Thousands of Israelies murdered by Arafaters;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Israelies threatened to be murdered by Arafaters;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? No;
(3a) American Financial/weapons support? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of American Financial/Weapons support of Israelies? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? No American troops are on the ground in Israel;
(5a) Purpose of American Financial/Weapons Support of Israelies? Minimize additional murders of Israelies by Arafaters by maximizing Israeli ability to defend itself against Arafaters;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support? Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Syria support Arafaters.

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The Fallacy of the War on Terror

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