The Fallacy of the War on Terror

Mc GEntrix, shouldn't you be out shopping at wal-mart and waving american flags whilst cowering in fear of a terrorist attack?

Quote:

The long term solution for the jews is to change or destroy that part of arab culture that has adopted (for whatever reason) the well known Koran (Qu'ran) admonition to kill the infidels among them.

So you would advocate genocide?

Quote:

The long term solution for the jews is to change or destroy that part of arab culture that has adopted (for whatever reason) the well known Koran (Qu'ran) admonition to kill the infidels among them.
So you would advocate genocide?
I could be wrong, but I think he is advocating modernization and education.

If you were to read the thread, you would find that he has explicitly rejected modernization and education in favour of "pre-emptively killing" everyone who "perniciously covets." Whatever that means.

I see. Perhaps you read what he wrote we a pre-conceived notion of what he meant and translated it to mean that.

One can destroy an idea without killing anyone. One can change a belief without shedding one drop of blood.

You're blinded by your liberalness and preconceptions.

Feds' fumble costs family

Accusations of terrorism wreak havoc since March

By Ann Imse, Rocky Mountain News
December 23, 2003

First, federal prosecutors publicly accused three members of a local Pakistani-American family of being terrorists - but didn't charge them.

Then last week prosecutors told a judge they actually had no evidence of terrorism.


On Monday, the case took another twist. A prosecutor stunned the defense by denying the government ever made such allegations against them.

The case, which has been winding through the court since March, has received widespread notoriety. Attorney General John Ashcroft even cited six of the seven family members by name in a speech in April about government prosecution of terrorism.

All of this has taken a toll on the family: Two members are in jail pending deportation, and two have been required to wear ankle bracelets that plot their locations. Patriarch Abdul Qayyum has said customers abandoned his Castle Rock cafe because of the publicity.

Technically, seven members of the family are charged only with lying about whether a relative was eligible to immigrate to America.

But there's much more involved than that.

During a hearing in March, federal prosecutors said three members of the family were awaiting orders to act violently against U.S. citizens in the United States.

No terrorism charges were filed. But the allegations of terrorism still could have been used to raise any immigration penalty from 10 months in prison to 22 years behind bars.

On Thursday, that possibility vanished. A prosecutor said in court that he didn't have any evidence of terrorism, and Judge Lewis Babcock limited the case against the seven to the minor immigration charge.

On Monday afternoon, one of them won another victory over government objections.

Defense attorney Donald Knight persuaded a judge that his client, Irfan Khamran, should be released from an ankle bracelet and near house arrest because the claims of terrorism had not been substantiated.

To that, David Gaouette, the federal terrorism prosecutor for Denver, said, "The government has never said that any of these defendants was involved in a terrorist act, at least that we could show to a grand jury."

Knight was stunned by Gaouette's statement.

"The government doesn't seem to care about what this has done to people's lives," he said after the hearing. "The government comes in here with a big splash ... without any evidence that they are really in al-Qaida, and then it goes away."

Gaouette said in an interview the government can't prove a crime. But, he added, that doesn't mean the defendants aren't dangerous.

"Because we don't have evidence that rises to probable cause doesn't mean they didn't go to those terrorist camps," he said.

At a hearing last April, Gaouette's colleague, Washington-based terrorism prosecutor Steven Tyrrell, argued that Khamran was a danger. He cited a confidential source who reported overhearing Khamran say "he supported al-Qaida, the Taliban and the idea of waging jihad against the United States and U.S. interests" and that he planned to personally fight U.S. forces in Afghanistan.

Khamran, a married gas station attendant, U.S. citizen, and father of two small children, "absolutely" denies all of this, Knight said. "My client, even today, told me he has a great love for this country."

ican, you really don't seem to understand the difference between war between nation states and terrorism. Discussion with you has become pointless.

You appear to be making a distinction without a pertinent difference. What do you think the pertinent difference is between war with a group of terrorists who control a nation state and a group of terrorists that do not control a nation state, but are financed by nation states and/or their citizens in order to enable such terorists to control and use weapons of mass murder?

Hobitbob,
As of tonight, I haven't yet been able to verify or refute the following:

Mohammed Atta, the alleged leader of the 11 terrorists who killed almost 3000 innocent people received some of his training in Bagdad. The alleged evidence of this (reported last week) was allegedly obtained directly from one of Saddam's associates. I'll present you the details tomorrow.

To verify it, I require at least two more sources that say the same thing. To refute it, I need one disclaimer from those who reported it, or from someone who presents alleged evidence that it is a bogus claim.

I have no idea where you acquired the idea that the Palestinaians are on "welfare."

Your "solution" is almost guaranteed to continue the cycle of violence.

Quote:

The long term solution for the jews is to change or destroy that part of arab culture that has adopted (for whatever reason) the well known Koran (Qu'ran) admonition to kill the infidels among them.

So you would advocate genocide?

I have no idea where you acquired the idea that the Palestinaians are on "welfare."
Saudi Arabia and Egypt have for many years provided their own form of unemployment compensation for those palestinians that have not and/or do not work in Israel or elsewhere in palestine. The US also provided and continues to provide equivalent aid. It's all part of an old agreement. This can be verified by our own state department.

Your "solution" is almost guaranteed to continue the cycle of violence.
What evidence do you have to support this amazing claim?

Shame on you for writing such a blatant fallacy. Destroying a culture is not synonymous with destroying a people (i.e., genocide).

For example, destruction of shintoist, nazis, fascist, communist, potist [Pol Pot], jihadist, and other fanatic cultures did not destroy people. It enriched them. Therefore, destruction of a culture is not synonymous with genocide.

So you would advocate genocide?

I could be wrong, but I think he is advocating modernization and education.

If McGentrix can understand that to be my actual advocacy (it is of course), why can't you, hobitbob?

HOW CAN WE STOP THESE MURDERERS?
1. Pay 'em to stop.
2. Pay other others to stop 'em.
3. Attempt to understand their grievances.
4. Attempt to do whatever is necessary and sufficient to end their grievances.
5. Kill 'em before they murder or aid or abet more murders.
6. Call these murders the natural consequences of legitimate insurrection.
7. Ignore them as long as they do not murder you.
8. Blame these murders on the people who are attempting to stop these murders for not stopping these murders your way.
9. Announce that all that were murdered deserved to be murdered.
10. Die.

QUESTIONS
1. Shall the attempt to understand their grievances be time or murders limited, or shall this attempt continue indefinitely or until understanding is achieved, whichever is less?

2. Shall the attempt to understand whatever is necessary and sufficient be time or murders limited, or shall this attempt continue indefinitely or until understanding is achieved, whichever is less?

3. Shall the attempt to to do whatever is necessary and sufficient be time or murders limited, or shall this attempt continue indefinitely or until this doing is achieved, whichever is less?

SO WHAT'S THE OBJECTIVE?
Eradicate terrorists, terrorist aiders, and terrorist abettors whenever and whereever they can be found.

HOW?
1. Kill 'em.
2. Secure liberty for non-terrorists and otherwise-would-be terrorists in the middle east so that they all can more probably live long, healthfully, honorably, and prosperously.

Israel is defending itself against terrorists. Stop the terrorists and Israel will stop defending itself. One can go all the way back to 1920 and 1921 to find large numbers of Jews in Palestine being murdered by arabs. Jews first defended themselves in 1929. It appears that it has frequently taken Jews quite awhile before they accept the fact that evil is irredeemable and must be destroyed not mollified sooner rather than later (e.g., the relatively placid march of millions of Jews to their own deaths by the nazis before some finally decided to defend themselves.) ...Better prompt pre-emptive destruction of those who give solid evidence of working to destroy you, then waiting until they make an actual massive attempt to do just that...

. It would have been far more beneficial for them, if the jews made early, massive and frequent self-defence strikes against the nazis....So learn from our experience and not wait to react, but instead pre-emptively strike at terrorists....

A lovely simplistic proposal. Why lovely? Because it avoids the question of how? Why simplistic? Because it avoids the reality of what currently motivates too many of the human race. A first, but by no means the only step, is to secure the liberty of the human race family by family, community by community, country by country, continent by continent.

So finally in the 20th century, they decided to resort to self-defense and the killing of those who were killing them, while at the same time treating their peaceful fellow arab neighbors like themselves. Their hope was to discourage others from terrorizing them. That did not work. They have commenced building walls and adopting pre-emptive self defense in the hope that will work better. I bet things will improve markedly if and when they kill Arafat and his gang.

The long term solution for the jews is to change or destroy that part of arab culture that has adopted (for whatever reason) the well known Koran (Qu'ran) admonition to kill the infidels among them.

Shame on you for writing such a blatant fallacy. Destroying a culture is not synonymous with destroying a people (i.e., genocide). For example, destruction of shintoist, nazis, fascist, communist, potist [Pol Pot], jihadist, and other fanatic cultures did not destroy people. It enriched them.[/u] Therefore, destruction of a culture is not synonymous with genocide.

If you were to read the thread, you would find that he has explicitly rejected modernization and education in favour of "pre-emptively killing" everyone who "perniciously covets." Whatever that means.

You are either in massive denial, or quite insane. I think our conversations are over. Goodnight.

I have several times described a short term solution that has worked many times in the past...


root for people: to lend support to people to live long, healthfully, honorably and prosperously.