far be it for me to opine here but I will. I don't have a position of the merits of circumcision pro or con. I don't think men in general do have an opinion being that we only have knowledge of ourselves in whatever state we happen to find ourselves. Circumcision has become standard procedure in the USA over the past 100 years essentially by the medical establishment. There have been isolated flareups about it but nothing of consequence. There is virtually no public/medical discourse/education about the subject leaving the general public ignorant of the issue. Thus, my complaint regarding california (San Francisco specifically) to make this a ballot initiative leaves "voters" to mandate for or against, by law, a medical procedure is ludicrous in an of itself.
Well, you are closer to California than I am, but your claim for American ignorance surprises me. I haven't heard accusations of insanity around it over here, but it is an issue thoroughly debated by parents...and we have gone from a country where a woman my age can go through life having seen almost no uncircumcised male penises to one where I believe most little boys do not lose their turtle neck.
Still, if you insist Americans are more ignorant...
That, however, does not make an iota of difference re whether the procedure is a horrid thing to do to a little kid for no good reason, however. Nor can I see how it justifies you calling people insane.
How do you defend it being a "medical" procedure? Just because a senseless ritual has been frequently performed by doctors doesn't make it a reasonable medical procedure. Similarly, just because vets used to cut off dogs' tails and ears because people wanted them to doesn't make it a veterinary procedure. That's illegal here now, by the way.
How is it insane for people to vote on it? Haven't many issues about child cruelty ended up being voted about, when parties have made various pieces of child protection legislation part of their platform, which people get to decide on by voting?
Look, as I said, I think infant male circumcision is ludicrously cruel, but it is not something I get personally especially agitated about...I was and remain simply bewildered by your, and then Mame's, level of emotion when I still haven't seen either of you come up with a decent argument.
Seems to me this is a repeat of our argument about laws generally.
My position is, and remains, that this is a disagreement where to put a line re child abuse, not whether there is a line, and I'd have thought people could discuss the line without calling people insane and thinking being asked to justify a position rationally is some sort of superiority complex.