California again?

@Mame,

So...what is your line re what "should" be a political issue?

@dlowan,

Various things, but I'd rather you dealt with the 'hysteria', 'attacks', and 'violence' you accused me of.

LOL

@Mame,

Mame wrote:

Get over it and quit being a drama queen. Cutting off a bit of skin is not an attack nor is it violence. You need a friggin reality check.

And what is or was my 'hysteria'? So far you are the only one resorting to hysteria and drama. And what 'attacks' on you? Where? When?

Give me a freaking break. Please take your freaking meds.

Actually, I am perfectly calm.

This is funny. You are getting more and more over the top while calling me a drama queen!

My initial categorizing of you as being over emotional re this issue was due to your joining Dys in labelling thinking of acting against male infant circumcision as insane.

Quote:

Why is govt getting involved in this kind of thing? That's the insanity.

You then decide that, rather than simply challenging you and Dys to justify your denunciations I think that whatever I think is right.....

Quote:

Just because you're a child advocate does not make you an expert (as you like to project) on everything, child-based or not. People can have different opinions, cultures, etc and it's OKAY even if YOU don't approve. YOU are not the final arbiter, regardless of what you think.

And now the post I quote above. Good grief.

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@Mame,

Mame wrote:

Various things, but I'd rather you dealt with the 'hysteria', 'attacks', and 'violence' you accused me of.

LOL

Where did I accuse you of violence?

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Yeah (shaking head here), I don't know what your issue is, dlowan. You are the one labelling things as violence, attacks, etc. I merely said it's not the government's business. And I don't think it's violence. It's a religious, or was a religious, custom.

I said I didn't subject my one and only son to it, and don't see it's necessary to do.

BUT, if someone else is of a different opinion/religion/persuasion, go for it. Some docs do numb the area before doing it; some docs won't even do it, for their own reasons. BUT it's not VIOLENCE, or an ATTACK - LOL.

Hey, some Italians pierce their baby daughters' ears in their infancy - wouldn't you consider that an attack? A violation? Invasion? Oh, no, it's not quite the same, is it?

You are way too over the top with respect to CHILD issues. You don't have to be a professional child advocate to be a child advocate. Obviously.

1 Reply

@Mame,

Actually, I can see one place where I have been unfair to you.

You allow PEOPLE to question the rightness of infant male circumcision, and don't call them insane for doing so...but you call it insane if a government moots legislating to stop it.

Again, I don't see the logic...if something is baselessly cruel to do to a baby, why is it insane for a government to consider the issue?

Again, what is the substantive difference between cutting off a (very sensitive) bit of skin and the tip of a finger?

Why is it insane for a government to consider legislating on one and not the other?

1 Reply

@dlowan,

baselessly cruel? please. Smacking the baby when it is delivered is baselessly cruel, too. As is putting a neonate on IV and god knows what else...

the circumcision is, IMO, unnecessary, but it's relatively painless, quick, and heals quickly.

Pick another issue to worry about.

1 Reply

@Mame,

Again, where is your argument?

Is it re degree of violence? Seriously....do you think that cutting off a very sensitive part of a kids' anatomy is not a violent thing to do? It's not like cutting off some dry skin, you know...

It's obscured to our thought by custom and practice, and the whole freedom of religion thing...just as many cruelties have been through the years...but truly, if that were done to any other part of a child's anatomy with no good medical reason what would you have to say?

I don't actually know the degree of violence from circumcision experienced by the baby...but I can guess by how they react that it is agonising.

I think re this we are in the same position we were in for years with puppies who had tails and ears docked....the entity to whom it was done had no voice and no enduring memory of what was done. I don't think this is a good reason to do cruel things.

I think you could try an argument re degree of pain etc...and I am not, despite your repeated claims, particularly wedded to stopping the practice...not because I don't think it is another act of silly cruelty, but because I think there are bigger fish to fry.

Thank you for your opinion re my attitude to child protection....but, as I said, I am simply responding to what I think is way over the topness from you and Dys on this one.

1 Reply

@Mame,

Mame wrote:

baselessly cruel? please. Smacking the baby when it is delivered is baselessly cruel, too. As is putting a neonate on IV and god knows what else...

the circumcision is, IMO, unnecessary, but it's relatively painless, quick, and heals quickly.

Pick another issue to worry about.

Pick another person to project worry onto.

How is putting a neonate on an IV BASELESSLY cruel, unless it is done simply to make the medical team feel good? If a neonate is put on an IV then it is because it is believed there is a good medical reason to do so.. If it were proved that a medical team had put an IV in a neonate for no good medical reason then they would be disciplined and likely struck off.

As far as I know the smacking is pretty well discontinued...but it was believed that it helped the baby to breathe when it was practiced.

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@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

Again, where is your argument?

WHERE is my argument? I don't think it's a big deal, that's my argument.

Is it re degree of violence? Seriously....do you think that cutting off a very sensitive part of a kids' anatomy is not a violent thing to do? It's not like cutting off some dry skin, you know...

yeah, I don't think it's a big deal. I've known several men who have been circumscised who have no memory of it or the pain...

It's obscured to our thought by custom and practice, and the whole freedom of religion thing...just as many cruelties have been through the years...but truly, if that were done to any other part of a child's anatomy with no good medical reason what would you have to say?

Depends on what they were planning.

I don't actually know the degree of violence from circumcision experienced by the baby...but I can guess by how they react that it is agonising.

I think re this we are in the same position we were in for years with puppies who had tails and ears docked....the entity to whom it was done had no voice and no enduring memory of what was done. I don't think this is a good reason to do cruel things.

I think you could try an argument re degree of pain etc...and I am not, despite your repeated claims, particularly wedded to stopping the practice...not because I don't think it is another act of silly cruelty, but because I think there are bigger fish to fry.

What 'repeated claims'? LOL I have never made claims, repeated or otherwise.

Thank you for your opinion re my attitude to child protection....but, as I said, I am simply responding to what I think is way over the topness from you and Dys on this one.

"Way over the topness", "repeated claims".... I can never be guilty of what you've accused me of. But I'm really glad we had this discussion because I now see you in a new light. You inject whatever hyperbole you see fit for your argument, regardless of its validity. I doubt we'll have much discussion in future as I avoid people who do that, but it has made me determined to really read everything you write in future, no matter to whom or on what issue.

Deb, I am really disappointed in this whole interchange. I thought you were a reasoned professional but you are not.

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

Quote:

A proposed ballot

i hope your not getting ahead of yourself here

if its broken fix it

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@Mame,

There are sound medical reasons for circumcision I do hope the law allows for such however i do not agree that circumcision should be allowed for religious or cultural purpouses.
I would definitly catagorise circumcision as assult.

Quote:

Cutting off a bit of skin is not an attack nor is it violence.

On your back Spread em I'm gonna cut your clit hood off.

How's about I do the same with your labia minora they are after all just bits of skin.
Both are real practices in some cultures

I'm circumcised already, had no say in the matter but prepared to accept it as a cultural practice of the times.

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@dyslexia,

I was circumcised, on medical advice,
when I was a few months old, because of urinary infections.
I 'm glad of it; I 'd not wanna look the other way; (no more urinary infections, either).

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

This brings up my one and only worry about it: cleanliness.

I did not have my son circumcised because I was told by my pediatrician that it was not necessary and I did not want to cause him any unecessary pain.
But I was also told by my pediatrician that it was extremely important to retract the foreskin and clean his penis thoroughly at every bathtime. He taught me how to do it and I taught my son how to do it when he was old enough to do it himself.
It was impressed upon me how much pain and discomfort could result from infections that might arise if this was not pretty much religiously done on a daily basis.
I wonder if all children can count on their parents to be conscientious enough to teach them that this is a part of their necessary hygenic routine from the time they can bathe themselves and to, in fact, do it for their sons themselves while their children are still in diapers (nappies).

Some parents can't hold it together enough to give their children regular and appropriate diaper changes - much less a daily bath.

I wonder if they will start seeing more infections in baby boys in California.

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@aidan,

I meant I didn't want to cause my son any unecessary pain - not the pediatrician - although I wouldn't want to hurt him either.

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@aidan,

Excellent point. Wife and I attended Red Cross mother and baby care classes. The instructor pointed out that at some time, some one was going to have to teach Little Ichabod how to keep himself clean. "That person" she said "would be the one named Daddy"

Sorry, kid. Best of all, he probably has no more recollection of the matter than I, and half the pain is in the memory.

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For those who are concerned over the health issue: I cannot say for certain that in every single case, circumcision is unnecessary, but from my point of view that is the case. I was not circumcised. I started out with a family of field workers that camped out much of the time, with no access to baths, quite often. After we left the fields, I was bathed once a week, on average. Me and my brothers were not taught any hygiene. Yet, not one had related health issues, as kids or adults. Not saying hygiene is unnecessary. But the concern over that bit of flesh is over rated.

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quite a dust-up and a confusion of issues. I, for one, am not an advocate of circumcision. The American Medical Association states

Quote:

Australian, Canadian, and American pediatricians do not recommend routine circumcision of male newborns.

and

Quote:

The American Academy of Family Physicians (2007) recognizes the controversy surrounding circumcision and recommends that physicians "discuss the potential harms and benefits of circumcision with all parents or legal guardians considering this procedure for their newborn son."

What I do object to is the process of a ballot initiative wherein the "voters" of the city of San Francisco determine the legality with the potential of criminalizing a parent. I also question the probability of this voter initiative surviving challenge in State Courts, US Courts of Appeals or ultimately the Supreme Court. I personally advocate knowledge/education as a more effective means for limiting non-therapeutic circumcision.

1 Reply

@dlowan,

dlowan wrote:

If you defend this you ought to defend

a. Cutting off girls' clitorises and sewing up their labia majora.

b, Cutting off the tip of a baby's little finger on religious grounds.

If you can't appreciate the distinction between infant male circumcision and "cutting off girls' clitorises and sewing up their labia majora," then you probably should find some other discussion in which to participate. I think there's some action going on in the cat threads.

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@dlowan,

dlowan, I agree with you and support your reasoning.

Some people just hate government---period.

BBB

1 Reply

California again?

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