High Seas
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 07:35 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
It all depends on your point of view.....

POV (test sample size: almost 20 overseas posters) is so uniform it's unlikely to be due to a purely random generating process. Crass ignorance is explanatory variable #1; systematic bias due to some ideological straightjacket is #2; stupidity (evident in time wasted in downgrading posts) a 3rd.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 07:38 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
But yes, I forgot - you are an American and I am not, ergo, you know better.


When it comes to American politics, and especially political trends historically, and in my lifetime, that is certainly true.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 08:35 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

nimh wrote:

This is the part that I called facile. It's just wrong. We may have wanted more from the Obama admin, ....

Who is "we"?


both of these posts made me laugh

you got this one sooooo right, HoT
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 08:37 am
@ehBeth,
"We are the World"

Now I'm going to have that song in my head all day...
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 08:52 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

High Seas wrote:

Who is "we"?

both of these posts made me laugh

you got this one sooooo right, HoT

Um, " we" as in the large majority of A2Kers who voted for or sympathized with Obama in 2008. Of whom many have expressed their disappointment with what he has(n't) done since.

But just in case there was any confusion, I'll clarify, that I did not in fact claim to speak for the entirety of the body of A2K users, least of all for HoT. I used "we" simply to refer to the many A2Kers whom Ive seen posting about how they did want Obama to do more.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 08:55 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
Um, " we" as in the large majority of A2Kers who voted for or sympathized with Obama in 2008?


"Large majority?" What's your evidence that this is true? I don't say it's not true, i just don't have any reason to believe it is or it isn't.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 09:07 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

ehBeth wrote:

High Seas wrote:

Who is "we"?

both of these posts made me laugh

you got this one sooooo right, HoT
... I used "we" simply to refer to the many A2Kers whom Ive seen posting about how they did want Obama to do more.

Thank you - for some reason this wasn't immediately obvious. In case you wonder about the link on the previous page>
http://able2know.org/topic/163475-3#post-4400664
> it's there for a reason - to avert taking that sweeping "we" for granted; it's dangerously contagious unless checked by someone (non-PC) who just plain disagrees. Prof. Arrow of Stanford got a Nobel prize for explaining inter alia how PC works - if you honestly care about your "we", try to educate yourself.

0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 09:26 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Yes, i'm sure you don't see how it addresses your argument, since it has long been evident that you think you know more about politics in America than Americans do.

Ohkay.

Sure, I think that I know more about politics in America than some Americans. H20, for example...

There's also plenty of Americans, obviously, who know more about American politics than I do. I have spent a lot of time on the Swing State Politics blog, lately, and I don't comment there much at all, because anything I could say is usually already said by others - and better. Damn, those are some amazingly informed people, when it comes to all things electoral politics, on any level. A little too rose-tinted sometimes when it comes to Dem chances, but extraordinarily well-informed.

Then again, surprisingly (since I come from such a small country), I've met foreigners who knew more about Dutch politics than many of my Dutch compatriots. And in turn, there are many Dutch compatriots whom I hope to god you won't believe, if they ever try to explain to you how it really is in Holland. An outsider will know better than some people who are from the country, and less well than others.

Surprisingly, then, it seems that where one comes from doesn't automatically mean that you are - or are not - in a place to tell the others what it's really like. Is that really controversial?

I'll take your word, for example, over most everyone else's when it comes to US history. On electoral politics, on the other hand, there are definitely also Americans whose take I will believe over my own impressions, because they are usually more right than I am; you're just not one of them. Happens. I'm sure you'll live.

Bottom line: the argument that "you're not from here, so what do you know," is just childish - I guess it's actually some fallacy or other, someone better versed in fallacies can say. It's a cop-out. But yeah, if you don't want to address the argument the other person is making, I guess you can just go for the place he's from.

..

Meanwhile, what a positively shitty night last night. Holy damn. Depressing. So many good people down. Not much to say about that, right now. :-(
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 09:26 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
"Large majority?" What's your evidence that this is true? I don't say it's not true, i just don't have any reason to believe it is or it isn't.

Let me amend that, then, to the large majority of posters on A2K who participated in the Politics threads.

As for evidence, there were threads back then, where lots of people said how they voted. If memory serves me well, I ran polls about it too, though that might have been in 2006 - I don't remember when polls were abolished here, and the results disappeared when they were. Of course, who knows, maybe people were lying en masse about what they voted.

Ultimately, sure, it's a judgement call, whether you believe that political preferences here were fairly evenly spread between Dems and Reps or tilted strongly toward Obama. It's not exactly like the posters here were shy about expressing their preferences though.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 09:41 am
@nimh,
Or maybe no one was lying, and those who didn't agree simply did not participate. Once again, i have no reason to say it's not true, nor have i any reason to say it is.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 09:42 am
As long as were airing anecdotal evidence, in my experience, the conservatives tended to disappear even before the election, when it became clear that McCain didn't have a snowballs hope in hell.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:34 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Splitting the executive and the legislative between the two parties is an old tradition with the American electorate. It cannot necessarily be taken to be an indicator of future electoral success. In 1954, the voters gave the Republican President Eisenhower a Democratic Congress to wok with. Eisenhower was re-elected in 1956. In 1994, the voters gave the Democratic President Clinton a Republican Congress to work with. Clinton was re-elected in 1996.

This is true of course. The biggest landslide victories in the House since WW2 were 1994; 1958, when the Dems made massive gains; 1974, when they did the same; and 1946, when the GOP won tons. After the landslide defeat in '94, the Dem prez still got re-elected easily two years later; two years after the big GOP gains ni '46, Truman still got re-elected, if narrowly; and two years after the big GOP defeat in '58, they did also lose the presidency, true, but only by a hairwidth. '74-'76 is the only exception, where massive mid-term gains heralded an easy oppositional victory in the next presidentials too.

But whom do voters blame when times are bad? And whom do they reward when times are good? If one party holds the Presidency and the other party holds one or both chambers of Congress, which side attracts the ire or the sympathy when economic good times or bad times hit?

I don't know, this is just from the top of my head, but

  • When the crisis erupted in 2008, at least judging on how they voted in the election that year, voters blamed President Bush more than the Dems who held a majority in Congress;
  • When economic times grew sharply worse in 1991/1992, the voters punished the Republican President, not the Democratic Congress.
  • When the recession hit in 1981/1982, President Reagan's GOP lost seats, while the Dems, which held Congress, won seats.
Now I've got to peek, but yeah - turns out - during and immediately after the recession of 1958/1959, in the elections of 1958 and 1960, the voters also punished Eisenhower's Republicans (by voting in lots more Dem Representatives in '58 and electing Kennedy in '60), not the Dems who were controlling Congress.

I dunno. The recession of 1953-1954 also came at a time of split power, but didnt seem to have much of an effect either way, and any impact of the recession of 74-75 would I guess be dwarfed by Watergate. So it's not a uniform pattern. Plus, that's just the economy: just because it's the President's party that apparently tends to get punished for economic bad times, rather than the opposing party holding one or both houses of Congress, doesnt mean that it works the same way for other bad news. (I'd guess it would only be more true with a foreign policy crisis though, since that more the President's purview anyway.)

Of course, hopefully the next two years will not see a worsening of the economic news at all, but an improvement. I'm still afraid of a double dip recession, but who knows, maybe things will start looking up quickly. And if my theory of the voters punishing or rewarding the President's party, rather than the party holding a majority in Congress, in cases where the two are opposed, holds true, than any economic rebound should be good news for the Dems, since they'd still get to reap the rewards.

I'm a lot more sceptical than you guys (I'm addressing Cyclo and Set, I guess) about how much can be done to influence the electoral mood by the President and the Dems in terms of playing up how the Republicans are obstructing. Highlighting all the shenanigans the GOP might get up to in these two years, etc. People just don't care. No matter how outrageous this or that move of theirs will seem to us (lemme specify that: us, politically engaged, left-of-center A2Kers) - short of an attempt to impeach Obama, it will just be too deep into the weeds. If anything, a lot of people will just shrug that eh, a bit of gridlock's good anyway - like some of you have been doing in this thread already. So in that sense the Prez will be pretty much hostage to the GOP's obstruction, I think, I don't think he holds a lot of name-and-shame type of leverage.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:38 am
@nimh,
Quote:


I'm a lot more sceptical than you guys (I'm addressing Cyclo and Set, I guess) about how much can be done to influence the electoral mood by the President and the Dems in terms of playing up how the Republicans are obstructing. Highlighting all the shenanigans the GOP might get up to in these two years, etc. People just don't care. No matter how outrageous this or that move of theirs will seem to us (lemme specify that: us, politically engaged, left-of-center A2Kers) - short of an attempt to impeach Obama, it will just be too deep into the weeds. If anything, a lot of people will just shrug that eh, a bit of gridlock's good anyway - like some of you have been doing in this thread already. So in that sense the Prez will be pretty much hostage to the GOP's obstruction, I think, I don't think he holds a lot of name-and-shame type of leverage.


The problem is that the Republicans have backed themselves into a corner with their promises to defund HCR and to NEVER compromise with Obama and the Dems. They will have to deliver spending bills that Obama will sign, or they will be blamed for the ensuing gov't shutdown - just like last decade. This will force them to compromise somewhat and the hard-edge of their base will go nuts over it.

Or perhaps you see things going differently somehow? What do you predict will happen? From what we've seen politically over the last 3-4 years, Obama is at his best when he is on the attack. He could hardly attack his own majorities publicly for not passing his bills; he won't have that problem with the Republicans in the House. Conversely, the Republicans are poor at defense and will instead try to spend their time subpoenaing Obama over every thing they can imagine. I don't think that's going to go well, people remember the joke that was the Clinton years.

This is all backed up by the fact that polling indicates that people neither like nor trust the Republicans. I don't think he'll have a hard time convincing the public that they are part of the problem.

Cycloptichorn
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:46 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
If one party holds the Presidency and the other party holds one or both chambers of Congress, which side attracts the ire or the sympathy when economic good times or bad times hit?


This is what i mean by the job the Democratic party will have to do before 2012. I've not said that it's a certainty that controlling the House will hurt the Republicans. It will be the job of the DNC to make sure they get blamed for anything that goes wrong. That's how politics work, which you know as well as we do. Image can mean so much, and that is where the battle is fought, and won, and lost. Remember (are you that old? i don't know) Pappy Bush in 1992? He saw a scanner in a supermarket and was naïve enough to express his surprise and wonder at the device and its use. He might as well have had "I'm totally out of touch with your lives" tatooed on his forehead. And the boys at the DNC made sure it wouldn't be forgotten.

They may not get a gift like that this time around. The GOP may not get caught with their hands in the pockets of lobbyists, as was the case in 2006--but whatever they get up to, the boys at the DNC have to make it look just as bad as they can.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 12:49 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
They might piss off their hardliners by compromising, which might result in opposition during the next primary season. No matter how pissed off the hardliners are, though, they still won't ever go Democrat, so pissing off the hardliners doesn't seem too painful for the GOP.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 12:57 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

They might piss off their hardliners by compromising, which might result in opposition during the next primary season. No matter how pissed off the hardliners are, though, they still won't ever go Democrat, so pissing off the hardliners doesn't seem too painful for the GOP.


Enthusiasm matters, though, as the last two elections have shown. Going to be tough to rile up the wingnuts when you've been forced to compromise over and over. The alternative is a government shutdown, which I doubt will go well for the Republicans.

Is there some winning scenario for them that I'm not seeing here?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 01:24 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The problem is that the Republicans have backed themselves into a corner with their promises to defund HCR and to NEVER compromise with Obama and the Dems. They will have to deliver spending bills that Obama will sign, or they will be blamed for the ensuing gov't shutdown - just like last decade. This will force them to compromise somewhat and the hard-edge of their base will go nuts over it.
I think you are being deliberately myopic here. Obama has his own problems with the "hard edge of" his base. In addition as the states wake up to the enormous new costs that will accrue to them under Obamacare, and as the voting public, in turn, wakes up to the growing crises among state finances, this thing becomes a two edged sword. A repeat of Clinton's 1994 win in the hold your breath contest is not necessarily the only likely result of a standoff. For example, it appears likely (to me at least) that the Republican Congress will not consent to the $16 billion new annual funding required to double the size of the IRS to enable them to police the Obamacare mandate for insurance coverage. If a standoff results from this issue, I suspect the President (and the Democrats) will end up with the short end of the stick.

=
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 01:33 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
A repeat of Clinton's 1994 win in the hold your breath contest is not necessarily the only likely result of a standoff.


It is by far the most likely result, and part of the reason for this is the the Republican party - despite their win last night - is deeply unpopular with the electorate. What data do you look at and see justification for their shutting down the government, that people won't blame them for?

I think the idea that Boehner or anyone in the Republican leadership has the ability to defeat Obama in a public face-off is rather farcical.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 01:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Hold on to that thought ! Laughing Laughing
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 01:45 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Hold on to that thought ! Laughing Laughing


I just don't understand where your confidence comes from, re: shutting down the government and the supposed popular support of it. You know as well as I do that the media will crucify the Republicans for doing it, and your own 2012 presidential candidates will run from such an action as fast as they can.

Are there examples of forced Gov't shutdowns which have EVER turned out well for the opposition party? Generally you want evidence of a tactic having success in the past before recommending it in the future.

Cycloptichorn
 

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