27
   

How hungry would you have to be to pee in a cup.

 
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 07:54 am
this whole talk about freedom is interesting, i agree that folks should have their rights and freedoms, i support them and would continue to vote to support them, i also have the right and the freedom to deem them unnecessary in my personal life as i see fit, so don't get it wrong that i demean anyone for their use of said freedoms or the freedoms themselves

djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 07:57 am
@djjd62,
as an aside, it just cost us $210 dollars to have our septic tank pumped on Wednesday, now granted it was 10 years since it was last done, but any chance i get to pee somewhere other than home is money in my pocket, and if someone is gonna give me a wage to do it, so much the better
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 08:07 am
@djjd62,
You might give permission to have access to your urine or blood, only to have it end up in the hands of mega database with who knows who having access to it.

You might give permission, knowing you are innocent, to a search of your home only to have it torn apart and then they leave you to clean it all up.

You might give permission to search your car, knowing you are innocent, only to have them take your car apart and leave you on the side of the road to put the seats back in and reattach the carpeting. I hope your family isn't with you on the side of the highway for all of this.

No thank you. Get a warrant.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 08:15 am
@squinney,
luckily i don't have a family, and don't plan on it, so my decisions impact nobody but me

Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 01:52 pm
@squinney,
squinney wrote:

I was gonna say that I would NEVER do it again, which is how strongly I am against it, but I could see where I would if it were say a job with full benefits that paid a million dollars and I only had to work for them for a few days and no torture or overly strict oversight was involved.

(Is that better?)


I would pee in their faces and **** in their mouths if I could... Are we free or so many suspects on the lamb... I hate those fuckers all most as much as I hate having to work around lame brains... Working people need protection on both ends, and all of us need more time off and better pay... Capitalist find some way to screw their whole system in the process of trying to screw everyone out of their lives and good products... It is a race to see whether the system will fall and the people will live on , or whether the sytem will take us down with it like the titanic to a quiet grave... Doesn't anyone take it as humiliating that we have to squat when they say squat, and bend over when they say bend over, and pee when they say pee, and not before??? There is not any limit to their tyranny, and everyone fears tyranny from the government, but the government is supposed to protect us from this sort of tyranny and is not...

And the absolute worst part of much of the tyranny and degradation experienced by people in the work place is that it is us doing it... I think Shakespeare said that if you put a begger in the saddle he will ride the horse to death.... How many times have you seen near do well republicans who are more viciously republican than any rich and well cultured republicans???... Those who have nothing to show for their reactionarism, who adore the rich, and want to be rich and would be lords but for the accident of birth are the worst little bich tyrants on the planet... Peeing is but the first part of the humilation one must suffer to have some jobs... The less they pay the more assholes one must endure... It is all a crime...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 02:06 pm
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

luckily i don't have a family, and don't plan on it, so my decisions impact nobody but me



Isn't that what Upton Sinclair said, that marriage is the curse of the working class... There have been conquerors in history that killed their own children, and took captive the children of those they killed and turned them into a new breed of soldier without mercy who would go on conquering until they learned to love and have children of their own; which marked their decline in a cruel world surviving on cruelty... Think of all you can do for you if you will just swear off having love, and take everything you can, and leave nothing for others... What ever you do; never grow a heart, and you will never be a victim...
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 02:18 pm
@Fido,
but i don't take everything i can, i help folks, have done charity work, i'm just rubbish at relationships and have found i like my privacy, so no family and kids for me

lots of folks out there having wives and kids, don't need me to contribute
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 02:24 pm
@squinney,
squinney wrote:


You might give permission, knowing you are innocent, to a search of your home only to have it torn apart and then they leave you to clean it all up.

You might give permission to search your car, knowing you are innocent, only to have them take your car apart and leave you on the side of the road to put the seats back in and reattach the carpeting. I hope your family isn't with you on the side of the highway for all of this.

No thank you. Get a warrant.



I think only an American could post like this. Really.

The kind of result you describe from a home or car search just doesn't happen here - even when they're finding stuff in their searches.

Kinda weird when you guys are supposed to be the free and brave and we (in Canada) are 'supposed' to have so much more government intervention/involvement. It just doesn't play out that way in real life.
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 02:40 pm
Fortunately, eBeth, I do not speak from personal experience, but do know of others that have had this happen. It also isn't as uncommon as it should be to see a car search taking place on the interstate or passing as it has finished and the cops have moved on while the people are still there putting the car back together.

Fido - I hear your disgust and second it.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 02:40 pm
@ehBeth,
a few years ago, the A channel network here had Cops followed by To Serve and Protect on Saturday nights, night and day watching the interaction of police south of the border and here
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 02:47 pm
@squinney,
The only people I know who've had anything like that happen is people travelling into the U.S.

Canadian border inspectors tend to help people repack their cars - unless they're collecting evidence. I have seen the messed-up cars on the U.S. side.
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 02:55 pm
The police have searched my garage and car several times. I didn't ask for a warrant. My car was stolen and after it was returned, they thought it may have been used in an armed robbery. Even if it had, they would have only confiscated it for a few days and I would have got a rental on their dime. It wasn't the car used in the crime, so no worries.
Another time, a guy robbed a place, drove off in a stolen car, rammed a couple of vehicles including a cop car and then abandoned the car and ran off on foot. I saw him in my yard, but they found him in a neighbour's yard, hiding in a shed. I didn't have a problem with the cops in my yard then either. They have to be allowed to do their jobs.
I do have a problem with peeing in a cup. I think it's unfair a raging drunk can pass them if he stays clean for a day or two, but smoke a joint and you're labled a druggie.. What?
Prescription drugs are waved and in many cases people who habitually take their medication are a scarier lot.
So many jobs here require pee tests, many are ongoing and random. I can understand the need for strict safety measures. And who wants to hire an addict that could potentially steal to cover their addictions, but I don't think it gives a clear picture of the person. A problem gambler could do the same. Health care insurance rates go up regardless if an employee has an eating related heart attack on the job or a hungover slip of the finger.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 06:38 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili,

You give interesting examples that I think are different than the examples I was giving. The difference is telling.

I would not help the police cast a net that treated me as a suspect without probable cause. I would object to this in any case, whether I was innocent or not. I would give as little information as I legally can at roadblocks. I would give never give agents permission to search my bag on public transportation.

Of course, when the police are doing their job to protect me and my community without casting a net that makes us suspects without probable cause, of course I will cooperate. If there is a chance that an escaped convict is on my property, I am certainly let them in and be as helpful as I can. I would be as helpful as I could at identifying suspects, or telling if I had seen someone in some picture.

I strongly support and cooperate with the police up to the point when they try to end around the protections given by the Constitution, particularly the standard of probable cause.

0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2010 01:03 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I am a 40 something software professional.
I also have been out of work for a few months.
A perspective employer just sent me a form to sign to consent to urine testing for drugs.

My first reaction was "hell with that!"
My second reaction was "I do need a job soon."
My third reaction was "I will have to be awfully hungry to submit to this absurdity".

In case you are wondering, I am not a drug user. But this is none of anyone's business.
I think I am going to cancel the interview (there are some other things that make me suspect
this company is a bureaucratic nightmare).

What do you think.

How hungry would you have to be before you signed such a form?
I am a full supporter of laissez faire capitalism,
to which the concept of freedom (bilateral freedom)
to take it or leave it is essential, imperative, indispensable, n the sine qua non.

I consider illegal narcotic drugs to be poison,
unless used for medical reasons.
I dislike them; (thay have made me feel sick n irritable
when I 've used them against pain.)
I know that the War on Drugs
is an unConstitutional USURPATION of power by government.


Having said all that:
I see that thay have the moral right
to discriminate against people who take drugs
and thay have the moral right to offer any job
on any take it or leave it basis that thay want. That is what the Founders had in mind.

For some jobs, this is more important than others;
truck driver, jet plane driver, surgeon.

In the case at hand,
maybe thay don 't want the potential for errors on-the-job
thay thay believe (correctly or not) that drug users 'd bring to the table.

If it were me, I 'd give them what thay want
(having been careful not to ingest any poppy seeds for a while b4) and forget it.
I 'd not take offense.





David
laughoutlood
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2010 01:10 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
How hungry would you have to be to pee in a cup.


Thirsty work?
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2010 04:56 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You say it all: You are a full supported of Laissez Faire Capitalism... What this means is that you have bought the ideal of Capital without regard to the human wreckage...

So you see they have the moral right... And how do you determine morality in the light of an accepted ideal without regard to the human costs???

You call it bilateral freedom... Does it occur to you that people and situations can be manipulated??? And that much of hands off capitalism counts on just that fact; that when markets, even labor markets can be controlled, profits can be limitless??? We are all at a disadvantage... Let me give you an example...

In my father's generation it was taken for granted that a man supported his family and his wages reflected that fact... Now, it is taken for granted that every mother must also work, and a man's wages reflect that fact, so that two together now support their families no better than a man working years ago, with the disadvantage that televisions and strangers now raise our children.

And the labor market is flooded, and only government intervention can keep wages from reaching their ultimate low, what it takes to keep people alive... We clearly do not need so many people working, and no one can say it is healthy, which is to say, moral, for society to have all mother's working, and yet it is because wages are so low that no one suggests a 32 hour work week; and instead, because wages are a pittance, people are often regularly pushed beyond 40 hours until they are burned right out and trashed to make way for others...

It is not good nor moral for business and commerce to determine every aspect of social life... The universal effort is to keep wages low, and the universal result is the destruction of the market so that foreign markets and wars to have them must result... Where is the morality??? If business could be governed, it would still be possible to have advancement and individualism... No depression would have such terrible results if people had some of their own wealth, if the economy had some depth... Now it is a mile wide and an inch deep, and the least wind reveals the bottom...

We, with our hands off capitalism, are like the South before the civil war... All the wealth created by slavery was drained out of that society by those, primarily in New York, who controlled the markets and capital... It was the need to replace the slaves killed by slavery that set their price, and the price of cotton they were depreciated like robots are today... The profit was drained off, again by those in control of capital and markets just as it is today, and when it came to growth in the South, there was none... We are not growing in production and we are failing as a market because we have no wealth and have no income and must resort to credit for everything... The less well governed is the economy the sooner the rich will end up with all, even consuming the petty capitalist in your so called free market...
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2010 06:47 am
@Fido,
Most of what u wrote is only confused emotionalism
which is inconsistent with historical fact.

I will address some of it.


Fido wrote:
You say it all: You are a full supported of Laissez Faire Capitalism...
I am; yes.



Fido wrote:
What this means is that you have bought the ideal of Capital
without regard to the human wreckage...
I have, yes; no regard for that.
Additionally, I am confident that the natural laws of economics
(supply n demand in an environment of personal liberty)
will be best for society as a whole, but I am not a societarian.
I am an Individualist libertarian.








Fido wrote:
So you see they have the moral right...
Yes; anyone has a moral right to offer a contract on whatever terms he wishes
and anyone else to whom it is offered has the right to take it or leave it, or to counter-offer.





Fido wrote:
And how do you determine morality
in the light of an accepted ideal without regard to the human costs???
U determine morality by ascertaining whether
any party 's rights have been violated or not; that is how.
I don 't know to which human costs u refer, but my first reflex is to suspect
that thay r irrelevant to the subject matter of the offer of a contract.

Correct me, if I 'm rong.







Fido wrote:
You call it bilateral freedom...
I do; yes.





Fido wrote:
Does it occur to you that people and situations can be manipulated???
SO WHAT ??
That can be morally OK, or not, depending on the specific circumstances.






Fido wrote:
And that much of hands off capitalism counts on just that fact;
that when markets, even labor markets can be controlled, profits can be limitless???
As long as contracts r accepted or rejected in an environment of liberty: I am happy n content.







Fido wrote:
We are all at a disadvantage... Let me give you an example...
OK



Fido wrote:
In my father's generation it was taken for granted that a man supported his family and his wages reflected that fact...
Maybe.







Fido wrote:
Now, it is taken for granted that every mother must also work,
I dispute your allegation.




Fido wrote:
and a man's wages reflect that fact, so that two together now support their families
no better than a man working years ago,
I dispute u again.





Fido wrote:
with the disadvantage that televisions and strangers now raise our children.

And the labor market is flooded, and only government intervention can keep wages
from reaching their ultimate low, what it takes to keep people alive...

We clearly do not need so many people working,
I do not accept your opinion as being FACT.




Fido wrote:
and no one can say it is healthy, which is to say, moral,
Health n morality r not related.






Fido wrote:
for society to have all mother's working, and yet it is because wages are so low that no one suggests a 32 hour work week; and instead, because wages are a pittance, people are often regularly pushed beyond 40 hours until they are burned right out and trashed to make way for others...

It is not good nor moral for business and commerce to determine every aspect of social life...
Thay don 't do that.





David






0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2010 09:40 am
@maxdancona,
Actually he has had issues with everyone he has reported to thus far...he is reporting directly to me now until the end of the year (temporary situation).

I am not saying that you are necessarily troublesome - really cannot tell unless you did indeed work for me.

But this person has had issues with his first line manager on up to several layers above me.

He honestly thinks he is smarter than everyone else. And lets them know. His prior manager (who got on with a high level program) was always trying to help him knowing how smart (at least book smart) this person was. And this same employee has since "thrown him under the bus" - telling lies about this manager.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2010 09:41 am
@High Seas,
Just don't eat any poppy seeds prior to taking the test...
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2010 09:47 am
@squinney,
The thing is - if you work in the financial industry - finger prints and peeing is expected and usually required. Often times it is for bonding purposes.
0 Replies
 
 

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