Mame
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 06:49 pm
I don't understand how knowing personal details about someone can affect your life unless they're a friend and borrowing money, babysitting, or wanting to stay with you. I just don't get it. So Bob is a closet gay and he invites you and your wife to dinner. How will knowing he's a closet gay affect your enjoyment of the meal and overall evening?

And I hate to disabuse you, but I will. There are many, many people out there that you know somehow that have deep, dark secrets. You know they do. One may have a criminal record from 30 yrs ago, another might have killed someone in a car accident while drunk, another might have gotten fired for releasing information to the competition... How do you handle that?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 06:52 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
I personally do not want to live my life as though I am at a masquerade party where I do not know who anyone really is.


This is just like the bruhaha with High Seas about colored people. She asked was she was supposed to call them--and the obvious answer is people, because the alleged color doesn't matter.

I can tell you what these people really are--they're people, they're human beings. Your goofy comments about homosexuals not being honest about "what they are" is not a description of them, it's a description of you. If you weren't already prejudiced against homosexuals "what they are" wouldn't matter.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2010 07:09 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Foofie wrote:
I personally do not want to live my life as though I am at a masquerade party where I do not know who anyone really is.


This is just like the bruhaha with High Seas about colored people. She asked was she was supposed to call them--and the obvious answer is people, because the alleged color doesn't matter.

I can tell you what these people really are--they're people, they're human beings. Your goofy comments about homosexuals not being honest about "what they are" is not a description of them, it's a description of you. If you weren't already prejudiced against homosexuals "what they are" wouldn't matter.


You are correct. It would not matter, if I did not have my opinions about homosexuals. However, while I have no negative feelings for homosexuals that display a degree of effeminate traits, and are out of the proverbial closet, it is my personal preference to not feel comfortable with those in the closet, since I never know if the conversation reflects a real concern about some subject, or they just want to chat me up?

But, my feelings towards homosexuals would really be no different from my preferences to not associate with those from many backgrounds. Why must we treat everyone equally as far as friendship, or even acquaintanceship? Can we not have preferences, as to who we associate with? Like how many people want to value my presence?

One reason there is nothing wrong with prejudices, as long as we do not "act out" our prejudices in a negative way, is that society has to change in small increments over time; otherwise, society can devolve into chaos. We humans can barely tolerate the changes in society from generation to generation, let alone losing all prejudices in one fell sweep. That is why I talk about my Jewishness so often. It is just like an allergy shot to desensitize those that find Jews too alien to their little worlds. So, I am sure that future generations of Foofie will be quite comfortable with all homosexuals. Closeted or out.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 03:38 am
@Foofie,
Your feelings have absolutely no relevance to the lives of anyone. If, in a person to person relationship, you wished to discuss what makes you uncomfortable, that would be reasonable. It is not reasonable to posit that there are large numbers of people who are not known to you, whom you can justifiably resent because they don't run up to you in the street to tell you all about themselves.

Your choice not to associate with people "from many backgrounds" is just evidence of your bigotry, and in the United States, it is entirely possible that you could already be associating with such people, and not know it. Do you know anyone named Martin? Are they of English descent? The name is common in English, German, French, Spanish and Polish and several other slavic languages. How can you tell the players without a score card? Do you rush up to people to point out that you're Jewish? (In your case, that wouldn't surprise me.)

Should homosexuals perhaps have pink triangles sewn on their clothing, so you can readily identify them? How long before you are told to sew a yellow, six-pointed star on your clothing?

You really can't see that your obsession with categorizing people is an appeal to superficiality and ignorance, and not to intelligent assessment of people. There is no good reason to allege that there is nothing wrong with prejudice, because it is a willful abdication of intelligent assessment based on superficial and misleading characteristics.

You talk about being Jewish all the time because you are obsessed with the labels, and not the contents. Because you can't see past the surface. Try to absorb what Mr. King meant when he called for people not to be judged on the color of their skin, but the content of their charactesr. And do us all a favor and don't tell us what "we humans" can or can't tolerate.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 05:32 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
I don't understand how knowing personal details about someone can affect your life unless they're a friend and borrowing money, babysitting, or wanting to stay with you. I just don't get it. So Bob is a closet gay and he invites you and your wife to dinner. How will knowing he's a closet gay affect your enjoyment of the meal and overall evening?

And I hate to disabuse you, but I will. There are many, many people out there that you know somehow that have deep, dark secrets. You know they do. One may have a criminal record from 30 yrs ago, another might have killed someone in a car accident while drunk, another might have gotten fired for releasing information to the competition...

How do you handle that?
Different people will relate to it in different ways,
or according to the mood of the moment. I 'm usually somewhat more pleasant in addressing a female than a guy.

I think its helpful to know from what mind,
from what background utterances come.
Young or old, American or alien, male or female
libertarian or authoritarian, Individualist or collectivist, or pacifist,
well educated, knowing applicable history, or not.

That helps u to understand the incoming information.

Of course, I don 't expect anyone to unearth deep, dark secrets,
altho that has been known to happen. (A lot of guys have met their fates
because of confessing to all kinds of things in bars, or elsewhere.)





David
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 08:40 am
But David, before you know these details about people, you are attracted to something about them in order to be conversing with them. As your relationship progresses, you find out more and more of these details. Your initial friendship, therefore, is based on what they present, while your continuing friendship is based on who they present themselves to be. They may not choose to tell you they're a holocaust survivor, that all their family was killed in a house fire or they're a closet homosexual for the duration of your relationship, so they wind up being totally irrelevant. What you like about the person is what they've presented to you, in manner, education, class, etc... personal information doesn't matter.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 12:56 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Your feelings have absolutely no relevance to the lives of anyone. If, in a person to person relationship, you wished to discuss what makes you uncomfortable, that would be reasonable. It is not reasonable to posit that there are large numbers of people who are not known to you, whom you can justifiably resent because they don't run up to you in the street to tell you all about themselves.

Your choice not to associate with people "from many backgrounds" is just evidence of your bigotry, and in the United States, it is entirely possible that you could already be associating with such people, and not know it. Do you know anyone named Martin? Are they of English descent? The name is common in English, German, French, Spanish and Polish and several other slavic languages. How can you tell the players without a score card? Do you rush up to people to point out that you're Jewish? (In your case, that wouldn't surprise me.)

Should homosexuals perhaps have pink triangles sewn on their clothing, so you can readily identify them? How long before you are told to sew a yellow, six-pointed star on your clothing?

You really can't see that your obsession with categorizing people is an appeal to superficiality and ignorance, and not to intelligent assessment of people. There is no good reason to allege that there is nothing wrong with prejudice, because it is a willful abdication of intelligent assessment based on superficial and misleading characteristics.

You talk about being Jewish all the time because you are obsessed with the labels, and not the contents. Because you can't see past the surface. Try to absorb what Mr. King meant when he called for people not to be judged on the color of their skin, but the content of their charactesr. And do us all a favor and don't tell us what "we humans" can or can't tolerate.


Being Jewish today is not like being a Jew in 1942 Berlin. However, there are many people that subscribe to the "popular culture" for their perceptions, beliefs, and values. And, let us both be honest, in that many people, that are not big practioners of "intelligent assessment," have pre-judged opinions about Jews, be they secular Jews or religious Jews. So, I play the statistical odds, so to speak, and only when I have known someone for quite awhile do I accept them for any "intelligence assessment" they might effect. Otherwise, I steer clear of strangers, just like my mother told her Foofie ages ago.

But, those homosexuals that remain in the closet are still annoying to me, since they are either acting like a Jew in 1942 Berlin, or I have to wonder if they like to have encounters with someone that took them for straight. There really are some homosexuals that like to have encounters with unsuspecting straight males. The same would be for some lesbians in the closet (aka, lipstick lesbians). And, a few too many drinks is always a good alibi the next day.

So, like the Seinfeld sitcom said, "nothing wrong with it" (being homosexual); however, I just like to know who I am talking to. And, labels do count, in my opinion, since the origin of those labels (Jew, Catholic, White, Black) often are the recipients of a great amount of specific brain-washing to make an individual a true reflection of that label. Otherwise, there would be little need for Parochial schools, Yeshivas, etc., etc., in my opinion.

Let me bask in the warm waters of my limited comfort level with strangers.

Now, if I was an Evangelical Christian, I would guess many people would not argue any of this with me, since they would understand my social mores have a very narrow view. So, just because of my secular Jewish identity do I get all sorts of rhetoric that my thinking is skewed?

But you did, in my opinion, punctuate your post above with such nice parenthetical phrases, using a comma. Good punctuation really makes the poster, I believe.

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 01:02 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

But David, before you know these details about people, you are attracted to something about them in order to be conversing with them. As your relationship progresses, you find out more and more of these details. Your initial friendship, therefore, is based on what they present, while your continuing friendship is based on who they present themselves to be. They may not choose to tell you they're a holocaust survivor, that all their family was killed in a house fire or they're a closet homosexual for the duration of your relationship, so they wind up being totally irrelevant. What you like about the person is what they've presented to you, in manner, education, class, etc... personal information doesn't matter.


You are correct; however, for that person to grow more meaningful, in a friendship, etc., the personal information does become relevant at some point, since I believe many people hesitate to go down a road, so to speak, not knowing if the road is a dead-end, or has construction, or some other obstruction.

I would guess my opinion might correlate with introversion, while your opinion might correlate with extroversion? Neither can claim objective correctness. Both can claim subjective truth.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 01:44 pm
@Foofie,
To point out that other people are prejudiced and bigoted doesn't excuse that on your part, that's a tu quoque fallacy. If you have any pretense to intelligence and perception, you cannot ignore (even if you won't publicly admit it) that prejudice and bigotry is a surrender of intelligence to the sum of your hatreds and fears.

You're pathetic.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 03:39 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Mame wrote:
I don't understand how knowing personal details about someone can affect your life unless they're a friend and borrowing money, babysitting, or wanting to stay with you. I just don't get it. So Bob is a closet gay and he invites you and your wife to dinner. How will knowing he's a closet gay affect your enjoyment of the meal and overall evening?

And I hate to disabuse you, but I will. There are many, many people out there that you know somehow that have deep, dark secrets. You know they do. One may have a criminal record from 30 yrs ago, another might have killed someone in a car accident while drunk, another might have gotten fired for releasing information to the competition...

How do you handle that?
Different people will relate to it in different ways,
or according to the mood of the moment. I 'm usually somewhat more pleasant in addressing a female than a guy.

I think its helpful to know from what mind,
from what background utterances come.
Young or old, American or alien, male or female
libertarian or authoritarian, Individualist or collectivist, or pacifist,
well educated, knowing applicable history, or not.

That helps u to understand the incoming information.

Of course, I don 't expect anyone to unearth deep, dark secrets,
altho that has been known to happen. (A lot of guys have met their fates
because of confessing to all kinds of things in bars, or elsewhere.)

David


This is the exact opposite of what first attracted me to the internet back in the pioneer days before the general public joined in when surfing fees/hour became flat rate/unlimited time. I enjoyed not being encumbered by all that junk when talking with people. We conversed in the moment without any preconceived notions, prejudices or assumptions and it was very liberating. I don't need to know the details of someone's life before conversing with them. I prefer to allow them to peel back the layers as we're conversing.

Also, ditto what Mame said.
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 04:39 pm
I have a gay friend who told me... "anyone that thinks being gay is a choice has never had to tell their parents."
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 05:01 pm
@Butrflynet,
David, you get along with many people here yet what do you know about them? That's what I'm talking about! We know each other from the statements we make the inferences drawn from that, plus any information we may share. In my case, I've shared maybe 1/1000th, others more, others less, but it's still not enough to say you 'know' someone.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 06:30 pm
I believe the reality of people (as it may unfold to us in a friendship) generally defies the stereotypical combinations of qualities we all, to some extent, often assume. The combiations of qualities we expect may be more common than many - that's perhaps why we expect them, but individuals can always surprise us - and often enough do in my experience. People I've known for a long time continue to occasionally surprise me about many things. We are complex beings, and we evolve over time. Making sweeping judgments based on limited observation and knowledge is generally a bad bet.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 07:02 pm
@georgeob1,
I'll second that.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 07:18 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
given the bullshit your spread around here.
Why do you think your opinion is all there is ? Delusional ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 07:21 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I referred to ancient Jews as bandits because that is essentially what people like David did for a living.
What were your ancestors doing ? Smoking MaryJ and peace-ing out ? No wonder dinosaurs went extinct.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 07:24 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
To point out that other people are prejudiced and bigoted
How about telling them their opinion is **** because it disagrees with yours ?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 08:03 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
But David, before you know these details about people,
you are attracted to something about them in order to be conversing with them.
Not necessarily, Mame; e.g., when I was trying to spread the good word,
campaigning for the American Bill of Rights before 2008, in a variety of fora,
dialog ofen began with an insult or a taunt against me,
from which the debate continued with analysis of the subject matter.




Mame wrote:
As your relationship progresses, you find out more and more of these details.
Your initial friendship, therefore, is based on what they present,
while your continuing friendship is based on who they present themselves to be.
Its been my observation that, more ofen than not, friendship has been based on ideology: which team he favors,
be it Individualist or collectivist, libertarian or authoritarian.




Mame wrote:
They may not choose to tell you they're a holocaust survivor, that all their family was killed in a house fire or they're a closet homosexual for the duration of your relationship, so they wind up being totally irrelevant. What you like about the person is what they've presented to you, in manner, education, class, etc... personal information doesn't matter.
Some years ago, I made a fruitless endeavor (posted a thread)
in an effort to encourage members to fill out their personal profiles
so that we will know what thay want us to know about them.
I 've filled mine out.

Of course, if thay have told us nothing
and wish us to know nothing about them, thay r within their rights.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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