11
   

Man Bashing, and what Men should do about it

 
 
firefly
 
  1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 03:12 pm
Hawkeye is a big fan of these 19th century gender stereotypes about "masculinity"--his thinking is right in line (or lockstep) with Biddulph..
Quote:

Raising boys? Help yourself to some gender stereotypes
Mon, 04 Jan 2010 -
Clare Gould More

Steve Biddulph’s bestseller on bringing up boys takes us on a trip back to the 19th century.

It was as I stood waiting in a queue in the local department store that the book caught my eye. Jiggling my baby son in his sling and pushing my daughter’s pushchair along, a row of blue and pink books swam into view. Their pastel covers beamed up at me next to the checkout, their covers stamped with photogenic children gazing open eyed - middle-class and white; dimpled skin and Boden t-shirts. Raising Girls and Raising Boys loudly proclaimed the titles. Obviously there was a knack to this - one I needed to learn.

I wish I had been forewarned. Parenting is hard job but it is also tribal. Mother pitted against mother in a struggle to raise their children the correct and legitimate way. Black and white; four legged vs. two legged; routine vs. attachment; Penelope Leach vs. Gina Ford - I knew I would have to pick a side. What I didn’t initially expect was how my feminist principles would also be under attack. This was an examination not just of my children but me - my class; morality; worldview; politics. So like any good middle-class girl preparing for a test, I read the books.

The book that had caught my eye that fateful afternoon is a popular one. Raising Boys by Steve Biddulph is regularly recommended from the pages of The Guardian to Mumsnet; his policy work implemented through school curricula. Its author is a well-travelled speaker regularly courted in the UK and Australia - a modern day messiah on raising that most difficult of beasts - the boy child. His subject is big business and plays to a common modern worry. What should we do with our boys? Every newspaper and news bulletin is full of the problems that the parent of a boy will encounter. Raised suicide rates, drug abuse, criminality, sexual violence, poor exam results - it’s hardly surprising that parents want a magic pill. The problem was now personal to me. A few short months before, as I lay in the ultrasound suite in the hospital looking at my squirming baby son inside my belly, I found myself wondering how I would manage with what suddenly looked like a complex conundrum rather than a child. How would I bring up a son who was respectful towards women, considerate, who would understand and uphold my feminist principles? Screw that. How would I prevent him ending up in prison, dealing skunk, overdosing on painkillers in a suicide pact? In a way that my daughter had never worried me, my son opened up questions about my parenting that scared me and drove me to pick up the magic pill. Biddulph went in the shopping basket.

In Biddulph world, men are men and women are women. Women stack the dishwasher while hubby reads the paper. Biddulph’s philosophy for happiness is simple. Be heterosexual, be middle class and make sure you marry your man. Once these ideals are fulfilled the stage is set. Mother is nurturing and gentle - her passion wholly centred upon domesticity. In his essay, ‘Stand Up to Your Wife’ in his book, Manhood he claims that strong women will “feel able and willing to bear a child”. The magic is such that Biddulph claims to “have known fertility problems to disappear through this work - as if a woman’s body would not bear a child until her mind knew it could and would protect that child”. Meanwhile the man must “stand up to his wife”. New Man is boring - “I’ve met dozens of strong, capable feminist women, who tell me in the confidentiality of the counselling setting, that they have finally found the sensitive, caring, new-age man they thought they wanted and they are bored stiff! They are starting to drive slowly past building sites, wondering whether to whistle!” he chuckles. Scrape the surface and modern empowered women are the root of the problem - emasculating men, confusing boys and subverting the natural order of things. The temerity is astounding. Women have demanded change of men and now are unhappy with the result. Like modern day Pandoras, they’ve opened the box and unleashed a modern-day catastrophe.

Once Biddulph has dealt his masterstroke, denying similarity and emphasising difference between the genders, his vision continues apace in Raising Boys: Why Boys are Different - And How to Help Them Become Happy and Well-balanced Men. Boys are mathematical. Girls are empathetic. Boys are physical. Girls are passive. Boys are passionate. Girls are obedient. Boys find it difficult to communicate effectively. Girls take any chance to discuss their feelings. Once the book is debated by its readers, the stereotyping reaches still further dizzying heights. Readers muse on the ability of their son to use the remote control as evidence of a deeply rational and mathematical mind, while another mother is convinced of the essential nature of gender difference by her daughter’s liking for dresses. Everywhere difference is posed as natural. Everywhere ‘natural’ is posed as unchanging, immovable and essential. Males emerge as a separate species - their skills, attitudes and passions antithetical to their female counterparts. Who could deny the obvious? Men and women are different, their brains fundamentally differently wired, their circuits incompatible and what can be expected of and by each sex, different as a result.

Biddulph’s panacea was simple. My worry and fear could be dulled if I simply accepted the obvious - that my feminist principles would harm my boy. I should accept that boys will be boys. It would be exceptionally naïve of me to expect the feminist-friendly son I craved. In fact, it would be actively harmful. When I dressed my son in my daughters pink cast-offs I was wounding his psyche, when I let my daughter play with cars and train sets, I was encroaching on his space. Masculinity was an endangered state and must be defended against ‘girl’ at all costs. Boyhood was undeniable, but it was also a delicate flower. Nature, it seemed, needed to be nurtured into existence.

Biddulph goes so far as to suggest that boys need to be rescued from their mothers. In describing the Lakota tribe - a “story from the heart” no less - he talks approvingly of how boys were prevented from “falling” into the world of women by being prevented from speaking to their mothers for two years. Mothers are the problem with boys, he suggests, leaving them “uninitiated”, “immature” and “dependent”. Do women encourage men to be this way through such deficiencies in them? What is the mechanism? What infects boys from the company of women? Why is it the case that what is exemplary in the female is a failing in the male?

The rhetoric of Victorian misogyny has been transplanted - labelling the son, but deftly reflecting back on the mother. Patchy science is collapsed with lazy stereotypes in order to fuel, essentially, a defence of the status quo. In Stephen Jay Gould’s essay ‘Measuring Heads’, a critique of biological determinism, he is clear as to the reasons for this compromised belief: “Self-interest, for whatever reason, has been the wellspring of opinion on this heady issue from the start.”

Compare Biddulph’s critique of emasculated, “immature” and “dependent” boys with the 19th century anatomist Paul Topinard who, while researching sex differences in the brain, blithely stated that woman was “lacking any interior occupation … (her) role is to raise children, love and be passive”. A fellow anatomist, similarily researching sex difference, Gustave Le Bon went further in 1879: “There are a large number of women whose brains are closer in size to gorillas than to most developed male brains… They excel in fickleness, inconstancy, absence of thought and logic, and incapacity to reason.”

The rhetoric and science of sex difference has an exceptionally dark past, but one that is rarely acknowledged in Biddulph or any of the texts that he references. Instead, rather prissily, he reminds us “there are more male geniuses… in an anti-male era it’s important to remember that men built the planes, fought the wars, laid the railroad tracks, invented the cars, built the hospitals, invented the medicines and sailed the ships that made it all happen.” 2000 years of systematic oppression and neglect of female education is swept away as an inconsequential detail. Scratch the surface and the old Victorian eugenicist’s arguments against female emancipation surface. Men are geniuses; women clean their socks - after all, according to Biddulph, they need someone to “look after them” after a hard day saving the world.

Somehow I felt as if I had stepped into an alternative universe. The men described to me by Biddulph were not like any of the men I know, like and love. I know men who can talk the hind leg off a donkey; talk articulately about their feelings and understand mine; multi-task; cook; show affection; concentrate; who like music and art as much as engineering and science; who read novels; who gossip and bitch; who can cradle my son in their arms as gently as ever I could. All the things that Biddulph told me would come unnaturally, where I would need to do the running, seemed curiously easy to the men I know.

Science also seems reluctant to back up the facts as Biddulph believes them. Recent research at the University of Massachusetts suggested that at birth male and female brains are the same but that care received from parents has an enormous effect on development and structure. It was the first research of its kind to find epigenetic structures influencing the gender differences in mammals. We already know that boy and girl children are treated differently from the moment they are born and, increasingly, the care that a child receives in its early years is found to influence everything from future behaviour to hormone levels. Meanwhile, stereotypes are found to actively influence individual’s achievement in everything from academic to sporting performance. The human brain, it seems, is not the fixed rigid structure so beloved of the just-so story tellers of gender difference.

So why the desperation to cling to such stereotypes that can be so damaging and limiting to children? Why the compulsion to edge women back to home and hearth? Biddulph is certainly not alone in clinging to such an ideal. From day one I knew that the first question I would be asked about my baby was the sex. Babygrows and nappies were strictly colour-coded and their correct use rigidly adhered to. Kindly passersby recoiled in horror on discovering that my pink clad son was not, in fact, a girl. An idle browse on Hamley’s website alerted me to the fact that I had no choice - on entering I found I had to choose - boy or girl - if I was to search for any toy at all. Other mothers tutted when I allowed my daughter to play with their sons - didn’t I know that the big strong (toddler) boys might hurt her? Somewhere I had crossed the line and was now marked as a dangerous subversive.

It is not the case that Biddulph is disliked by many mothers. Biddulph’s strength is that in appropriating the language of gender equality and ‘respect’ for girls and women, he simultaneously uses the logic of sexism. Perhaps such myths and gender tales are comforting. Long engrained and part of the fabric of many’s parenting and upbringing, they are a comfortable rock in a changing world. They play to a fear that equality has gone ‘too far’. My feminist nature revolts however. I can’t find the science. I certainly can’t find the smoking gun. I can’t stomach the stereotypical assumptions. I can’t bear to see my children caged in gender stereotypes that limit both sexes as human beings. I want change but I also want something revolutionary. For once I would like to hear someone say the (apparently) unsayable - that perhaps at the root of it, men and women really aren’t all that different at all.
http://www.xyonline.net/content/raising-boys-help-yourself-some-gender-stereotypes
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 03:13 pm
@georgeob1,
Ha, before I read that last line, I was gonna say "needling the occasional fiercely feminist employees"? I think you like to needle anybody that can dish it out and take it, and that's exactly as it should be, ob1.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 03:23 pm
@Mame,
Well, I do like needling you, babe.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 03:48 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with the traditional "masculine code" that appears to be the subject of some of this discussion. Certainly it is no more confining or harmful than the equally rigid social code for women.


I think that the rigid social codes, or gender stereotypes, for females were as equally harmful as those for males. Both impose limiting, confining, restrictions on behaviors, attitudes, and emotions. Both attempt to force individuals into rigid gender molds that negate some aspects of their nature and their development.

I think that women have moved away from the strait-jacket stereotype of "femininity" to a much greater extent than men have moved away from "masculinity"--that's what women's liberation was all about. And that's one reason that woman are freer now to express so many aspects of themselves, including their leadership abilities and their ability to function in positions of power. Women need not any longer go mainly into traditional female "helper" roles in society--teachers, nurses, librarians, child care, etc.--and, consequently, their ambition, and motivation, can now be limitless.

Why would men not benefit equally from being released from a similarly rigid conception of "masculinity"? Why shouldn't boys be encouraged to develop their emotional natures and to express their emotional sensitivities and reactions, and needs? Why shouldn't boys be encouraged in artistic and creative pursuits? Why should they always have to be concerned about whether their behavior is "manly"?

Why do we have to draw any hard and fast lines between what is feminine and what is masculine? What purpose does it serve? Why not just focus on trying to raise well rounded, balanced, fully developed "people".
BillRM
 
  -2  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 03:54 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Why do we have to draw any hard and fast lines between what is feminine and what is masculine? What purpose does it serve? Why not just focus on trying to raise well rounded, balanced, fully developed "people".


Mother nature had done the line drawings and the customs of how we treat boys different from girls are just the reflection of those lines not their cause.
firefly
 
  1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 07:10 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Mother nature had done the line drawings and the customs of how we treat boys different from girls are just the reflection of those lines not their cause.


Not true at all. "Mother Nature" determines gender, and gender differences, but not stereotyped cultural gender roles or cultural gender specific behaviors, attitudes, expectations, and emotions. Those are all acquired as part of the socialization process--they are learned.

Men aren't born with a notion of "masculinity"--what is considered "manly" is largely drummed into them by their culture.

Notions of "femininity"--that women are the "weaker sex", they are demure, dependent, gentle, "ladylike", non-aggressive, less competitive, less likely to succeed in math and the sciences, less able to lead and command, less rational and more "overly-emotional", less able to be tough, less brave etc.--have all substantially vanished in the last 50 years.

Women are still women, they are still nurturing mothers, but, once given the opportunity, they have proved able to function on a par with men in almost every area of society. We now have female 4 star generals in the Army, and this year, the Navy announced that, for the first time, a female will command a carrier strike group. We now have female firefighters and police officers, female plumbers and electricians, and female construction workers--professions once open only to men. Females are no longer only nurses, now they are the doctors, and lawyers, and judges. We have female CEOs, female racing drivers, and female physicists. No long are the girls behind the boys in math and sciences in our schools, and they graduate from high school and college at a higher rate than the boys, they are more highly represented in graduate school, and they receive a slight majority more of the doctoral degrees conferred. And we came close to having our first female President of the United States.

That's pretty remarkable progress in 50 years. Women haven't changed. They still have all the gender equipment Mother Nature has bestowed on them.

What has changed, is that women are no longer hemmed in by notions of "femininity"--by charges of "acting like a man" if they venture out past the confines of the kitchen, bedroom, or nursery. They no longer have to wear white gloves and hats and frilly aprons, they can actually wear pants without it even being noticed. They can go to bars and freely enjoy sex. They can swear and curse like troopers, get tattoos, and be astronauts. And they can still put on their war paint, their Jimmy Choo 5 inch heels, that devastating red dress, and be quite female. Women now have choices.

But, while females have been able to begin to throw off the shackles of culturally proscribed notions of "femininity", males have been considerably less successful in breaking the bonds of an equally constraining, and equally outdated notion of "masculinity". And that might be a good part of the reason that males seem to be falling behind academically, experiencing more emotional difficulties, and less able to keep up with the opportunities and challenges of a "global" 21st century world.



Mame
 
  0  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 07:13 pm
@BillRM,
My god you're such a goof! lol

Mother Nature didn't draw any lines, mankind did. Firefly again has a valid point (and it's starting to get on my nerves! lol)... why should there be this solid demarcation between femininity and masculinity and who adheres to which? Very good point, actually. Wish I'd thought of that.

Men cringe when you suggest they become more feminine because it goes against generations of what they were taught and what's expected, but I tell you, it IS changing. Maybe not everywhere, maybe not everyone, but bit by bit it is changing. I see it where I live. Men are much more attuned to relationships than they were. And of course, I'm not talking about men that hang out in gun shops, beat their chests and chew 'baccy.

Why is bringing home the bacon considered the masculine role? Lots of single moms do this every day and probably don't even give the gender issue a thought. It is what it is.

Now, is it Hawk that's a stay at home dad? Doing laundry and vacuuming and such? (If not him, then who is it?)

firefly
 
  1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 07:37 pm
Quote:

How Can Men Be Freed from Harmful Macho Stereotypes?
By Ned Resnikoff
August 20, 2010

Many men spend their lives trying and failing to act like a "Real Man" -- an outmoded and harmful view of masculinity.

Simone de Beauvoir famously wrote, “One is not born a woman, but becomes one.” The male corollary, a much older aphorism, is usually framed as an imperative: “Be a man.” Or its inverse: “Don’t be a pussy.”

So what is a man? Don Draper is a man; James Bond is a man. We’re told pretty much from birth that we should be like them. Physical and political power are manly characteristics. So are aggression and dominance, both in love and war. Men eschew domesticity, sensitivity, nurturing behavior and vulnerability. Those who do not are total pussies.

Of course, as Mad Men fans know, not even Don Draper is Don Draper. The archetypal Real Man is just as much an unattainable caricature as its feminine counterpart.

This is the flipside of patriarchical advantage: Buy into the whole enterprise and you’ll spend your entire life trying and failing to become a Real Man. That’s enough to put anyone in therapy, if therapy weren’t for pussies.

I submit that all American men have had to, at some point in their lives, deal with the insecurity that comes from failing to be a Real Man. The most common way to deal with this is to double down on Real Manliness by suppressing your un-Manly instincts and converting your loathing for them into vehement contempt for anyone else who exhibits those same characteristics. That includes actual non-men.

I suspect that the reason why the double-downers are so repulsed by feminism is because it represents an existential threat to the system by which they’ve always measured their own self-worth. After entire lives spent cultivating a self-image as a strong, independent individual with a career and political capital, they’re being told that these are not exclusively male properties. But if they aren’t, then the Real Man itself is a concept devoid of content, and generations of American men have spent their entire lives chasing a shadow.

It seems to me that the difference between a feminist man and a virulent anti-feminist man lies in how one deals with that realization. You can either treat feminism as a threat to your entire life-long project, or you can treat it as an opportunity: an opportunity to define your self-worth in terms of your own projects and goals rather than those imposed on you by Maxim, Axe Body Spray and Spike TV.

I am a feminist man. While I can argue for that position on the grounds of moral responsibility and basic human empathy, I would be lying if I painted my position as some kind of noble sacrifice. It is in my own self-interest to be a feminist, because I know that I will never be a Real Man and that many of my own goals and priorities are decidedly un-Manly.

So rather than wander around in a state of perpetual self-loathing, I try to come to some other understanding of what it means to be a man. This is, I think, one of the great challenges for American men born in the wake of second-wave feminism. It’s a daunting project, because there are so few guideposts, but for the very same reason it is also a liberating one.
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/147918/how_can_men_be_freed_from_harmful_macho_stereotypes
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 07:51 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Notions of "femininity"--that women are the "weaker sex", they are demure, dependent, gentle, "ladylike", non-aggressive, less competitive, less likely to succeed in math and the sciences, less able to lead and command, less rational and more "overly-emotional", less able to be tough, less brave etc.--have all substantially vanished in the last 50 years.


All true and you think so far more then I do with your double standards that males are always responsible for their behaviors no matter how intoxicated and women are not even so after one or two drinks.

Men have a duty to protect poor weak women from their own poor judgments.

At least I am willing to treat women as adults who are responsible for their own judgments be that good or bad judgments.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 08:00 pm
@Mame,
You do know that most higher animals behaviors is divided along sexual lines also?

No PC nonsense is going to change the facts of evolutions.

Men and women are not the same why beyond the plumbing issues even those there are a large amount of overlaps.
Mame
 
  3  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 08:12 pm
@BillRM,
<sigh> brick wall <sigh>
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 08:55 pm
@firefly,
Firefly,

I think you have drunk too deeply of the contemporary propaganda. Corporate culture and even the Navy are still dominated by men and norms of behavior generally associated with masculinity. I agree that the removal of artificail barriers for women is generally a good thing, and that increasing numbers of women are succeeding in roles formerly thought of as exclusively male, but that has not substantially changed the different central tendencies of behavior of women and men.

Women aren't as physically strong as men and, on average, they aren't as good at math either. That is certainly no reason to preclude the women who are capable in these and other areas of life from pursuing them, however it is foolish to deny facts in obesience to some exaggerated norm of contemporary political correctitude. As in many things, variation among individuals is often greater than the variations between group averages, and some women are better than some men at things formerly thought of as strictly the domain of males.

I think you exaggerate the terrible fates of those "double downer" men who you claim struggle in pursuit of an exaggerated notion of masculinity. There are such men, but I haven't observed them to be nearly as common as you infer. Moreover, men who appear indifferent to exaggerated contemporary notions of the "proper feminization" of males, are often merely indifferent or even a bit contemptuous of that stuff, and not the insecure neurotics you suggest.

Frankly I believe that amidst all the progress that women have made in breaking down social barriers there are some very significant adverse side effects. Many young professional women appear to me to often feel that they must do everything, fulfill traditional roles and excell in their professional careers, and in many cases it visibly takes a toll on them. I don't mock them as you do the male "double downers" you imagine are out there. Frankly I sympathize with them: they often expect too much of themselves - more than they or anyone else can reasonably do.

I did a career in naval carrier aviation (before they let the girls in), and now in my second career, run an engineering and environmental consulting company that employs lots of women (over 30% of our total). I have observed that in professional situations women behave more or less like men in terms of the basic human attributes of ambition, integrity (or the lack of it), competition and cooperation - but merely in a more womanly way. No big deal either way - and no one I know is threatened by it.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 09:24 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I have observed that in professional situations women behave more or less like men in terms of the basic human attributes of ambition, integrity (or the lack of it), competition and cooperation - but merely in a more womanly way. No big deal either way - and no one I know is threatened by it.
Hopefully you are aware that people are often much different on the job than they are in the rest of their lives. Also, my contention is that the place to look at what is going on is with the adults currently being forged, that once the adult individual is formed they change very little over the course of their life, no matter the forces exerted upon them. I figure that you don't hang out with a lot of teens and 20 somethings, and thus you would not be aware of a problem with men adapting the change in gender expectations and behavior if one did exist.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Tue 28 Sep, 2010 10:45 pm
@georgeob1,
I have no idea what you mean by "contemporary propaganda"--and why are you dismissing the issues I've raised as propaganda of any sort?

Frankly, I think you've completely missed the point of what I have been saying.

I am not questioning obvious physical differences between men and women in body size or strength, or disparities in terms of any other biological characteristics. And it is more than obvious that men still dominate the military, and the upper echelons of corporate and political power. So what? What does that have to do with gender roles--cultural notions of "femininity" and "masculinity"?

I also did not write that article that refers to "double downers"--it was written by By Ned Resnikoff, a man, I simply posted it because it offers an interesting male perspective on the issue of "masculinity". And the sort of exaggerated notion of masculinity that Mr Resnikoff refers to is actually well represented on this thread by Hawkeye, who definitely has an old school notion of masculinity, and Hawkeye has already posted his concerns about the "over-feminization" of males. So, if you disagree with Mr Resnikoff's views, that is fine, but please don't accuse me of saying things I did not say or having views I may not hold.

My main point, in the past few posts I did write, was to differentiate between innate gender differences, and culturally acquired gender roles, and learned conceptions of "masculinity" and "femininity".

Ideas about "masculinity" and what the culture considers to be appropriate "manly" behavior. "manly" attitudes, "manly" occupations, " "manly" roles, etc. are learned. If a boy cries, because he is frightened to do something, he may be sternly told, "Act like a man". We transmit ideas of appropriate "masculine" behavior to children both directly and indirectly. Children, particularly male children, put peer pressure on each other to conform to these cultural norms--that's what the "boy code" is about. These culturally acquired attitudes proscribe what is acceptable "masculine" behavior. And, when men want to insult each other, they denigrate by calling someone "a pussy", or some other reference to being female, i.e. less than male, less "manly".

The same has been true of notions of "femininity"--these were likewise drummed into the heads of little girls, along with all sorts of ideas about being "ladylike". My point in discussing the advances women have made in the past 50 years was not just to say, "women can do it too", but rather to emphasize that women could not be doing many of those things if we were still clinging to notions of "femininity". Women wouldn't be firefighters, or Army Generals, or tough CEOs, or even aggressive trial attorneys, if we still had to pretend to be dainty and demure and dependent, and helpless. Cultural barriers to women's advancement came down, but, to move forward, the cultural constraints on women to behave only in "feminine" ways, had to change as well, and they did. Women are no longer really consciously thinking about "femininity". Little girls can be quite aggressive athletes without being called "Tomboys" or labeled as "unfeminine". Smart women don't have to pretend to be dumb so they won't scare the men away. Strong women can show off their muscles with pride. Our sense of being female, of being a woman, isn't threatened anymore, no matter what we do--because we're no longer preoccupied with that "femininity" stuff . We didn't change a thing about our genetic endowment, we're still "all female", we just changed the definitions of how females should act and think and behave--we ditched the girdle of "femininity" in exchange for just being female.

And that's not "contemporary propaganda"--I lived through those changes and saw them in other women first hand.

And, since we live in a world where physical size and strength matters less and less, and where most men spend days in offices or cubicles, and traditional "masculine" attributes find less means of expression or even utilitarian value, and insistence on "masculine" prerogatives and power entitlements is likely to meet with frustration and disappointment, it may be time for men to look at traditional notions of "masculinity" to see if they are still relevant, or to see if they are counter-productive. Someone, like Hawkeye, definitely feels these traditional ideas of "masculinity" are still relevant, in fact, he feels they should be strengthened and reinforced. Someone like Ned Resnikoff, in the article I posted, clearly would not agree.

But my points have to do with learned cultural gender roles--stereotyped notions of "masculinity" and "femininity"--not with biological differences between males and females.







georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 29 Sep, 2010 06:54 am
@firefly,
Since you posted the article by Mr. Resnikoff, I assumed you agreed with his ideas. The article was a good example of the propaganda to which I referred. I don't consider it to be either authoritive or even meaningfully insightful. The social sciences appear to be to be rather heavily populated with somewhat feminine male academic types who appear eager to misue their supposed credentials to take their revenge on others of a different disposition. Resnikoff looks like an example.

I'm no opponent of greater freedom of choice or expression for women. But I do resist the excessive theologizing about it all. It isn't necessary to bash others to get acceptance of greater freedom for some. Those who feel the need to do these things are very often, in my experience, motivated by their own issues.
firefly
 
  1  
Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:37 pm
@georgeob1,
You really don't seem to have a clue what I'm talking about.

I'm not advocating greater "freedom of expression" for women. For one thing, women already found greater freedom of expression--the days of Women's Lib were over 40 years ago. Where have you been, georgeob 1?

I'm not advocating anything for women.

I'm discussing culturally learned gender roles--stereotyped notions of "masculinity" and "femininity". And specifically, whether the traditional concept of "masculinity" is even realistically attainable in today's world, and whether it is counter-productive to mens emotional well being and boys ability to succeed academically.

I am trying to discuss the issue of "masculinity" because that is the issue that Hawkeye has raised. He sees "masculinity" as under attack--presumably from females--and views the problems of young men, including their difficulties succeeding academically, as the result of "over-feminization" of these men and boys by their mothers and by a "feminist" influenced culture.

How you have distorted and misinterpreted this to mean that I am bashing men is anyone's guess. But since you quite erroneously decided that I am some kind of crusading feminist advocate, you also figure I must also fall into the stereotype of being a "man basher". You really enjoy thinking in stereotypes, don't you?

I'm not bashing men at all. But you certainly are:

Quote:
The social sciences appear to be to be rather heavily populated with somewhat feminine male academic types who appear eager to misue their supposed credentials to take their revenge on others of a different disposition. Resnikoff looks like an example


Wow! Academia is populated with girlie-men! "Somewhat feminine male academic types". Are they just in the social sciences, or could they be lurking in the chemistry department or the history department as well?

Boy, just because you don't agree with Ned Resnikoff, he must be a "somewhat feminine male".

You do realize that's a typical macho put down of another man, don't you? You've labeled him "unmanly"--the worst thing a Real Man can say to another man. He doesn't fit in with your notion of "masculinity" does he? He had the gall to suggest that guys who try to live according to the traditional patriarchal notions of "masculinity" may wind up unnecessarily feeling like failures because those ideals are somewhat unrealistic and unattainable. And you conclude he's trying to take his "revenge on others of a different disposition". You think he's trying to take revenge on Real Men, the ones who struggle to live strictly according to those notions of "masculinity"? So, because you think he's trying to attack your manhood, you attack his in return. After all, you're the "Real Man".

georgeob 1, you've just provided an excellent example of how stereotypes, like notions of "masculinity" work--and how men beat themselves and other men over the head with them. And that's what male students do to each other with the "boy code". If you don't stick to it, you're "unmanly". You don't agree with Resnikoff, so he's "unmanly". And BTW, Resnikoff is not a social scientist, he's a college student (philosophy major) and a writer. He's part of the younger generation of men we're talking about in this thread, and, in that article, he's telling you how he's dealing with the issue of "masculinity" or hyper-maleness for himself. Truthfully, he sounds pretty well adjusted and at peace with himself.

You've also provided an excellent example of why boys and young men might be falling behind academically, another issue which Hawkeye raised in this thread. You don't value academic types, do you? Scholarly types just aren't real manly, and no real man wants to be like that. Give me the guys in the Phys Ed department--those are real men. That's what the boy code in school is like. Kids who study hard and want to get good grades aren't seen as manly, they're nerds, wimps, sissies. Doing well in school isn't consistent with he-man values. Being a jock, the football star, the soccer star, that's what's important--and we don't expect those guys to get good grades. Reading a book, or studying, in your spare time is dumb, real guys play video games, watch sports, drink, and have sex--so that's why male college students might be falling behind.

If men, or some men, don't want to look at, or objectively talk about what traditional patriarchal notions of "masculinity", and all it's baggage, might be doing to contemporary men, that's fine with me. But then they shouldn't pretend to be in the dark about why young men might be having problems with emotional well being, or academic success, or latch onto simplistic, and unfounded, explanations that they are "over feminized" and need an infusion of good old fashioned "masculinity", as Hawkeye has been telling us. Complex questions deserve better thought out solutions than that.





BillRM
 
  0  
Wed 29 Sep, 2010 12:57 pm
@firefly,
Being a male and acting as a male is not define by a penis or culture.........


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer


David Reimer was born as a male identical twin in Winnipeg, Manitoba. His birth name was Bruce; his twin brother was named Brian. At the age of 6 months, after concern was raised about how both twins urinated, both boys were diagnosed with phimosis. They were referred for circumcision at the age of 8 months. On April 27, 1966, a urologist performed the operation using the unconventional method of cauterization. The procedure did not go as doctors had planned, and David Reimer's penis was burned beyond surgical repair.[1]

Reimer's parents, concerned about their son's prospects for future happiness and sexual function without a penis, took him to Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore to see John Money, a psychologist who was developing a reputation as a pioneer in the field of sexual development and gender identity, based on his work with intersex patients. Money was a prominent proponent of the 'theory of Gender Neutrality'; that gender identity developed primarily as a result of social learning from early childhood and could be changed with the appropriate behavioral interventions. The Reimers had seen Money being interviewed on the Canadian news program This Hour Has Seven Days, where he discussed his theories about gender. He and other physicians working with young children born with abnormal genitalia, believed that a penis could not be replaced but that a functional vagina could be constructed surgically, and that Reimer would be more likely to achieve successful, functional sexual maturation as a girl than as a boy.[2]

They persuaded his parents that sex reassignment would be in Reimer's best interest, and, at the age of 22 months, surgery was performed to remove his testes. He was reassigned to be raised as a female and given the name Brenda. Psychological support for the reassignment and surgery was provided by John Money, who continued to see Reimer annually for about ten years for consultations and to assess the outcome. This reassignment was considered an especially valid test case of the social learning concept of gender identity for two reasons. First, Reimer had a twin brother, Brian Reimer, who made an ideal control since the two not only shared genes and family environments, but they had shared the intrauterine environment as well. Second, this was reputed to be the first reassignment and reconstruction performed on a male infant who had no abnormality of prenatal or early postnatal sexual differentiation.

For several years, Money reported on Reimer's progress as the "John/Joan case," describing apparently successful female gender development, and using this case to support the feasibility of sex reassignment and surgical reconstruction even in non-intersex cases. Money wrote: "The child's behavior is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother." Notes by a former student at Money's lab state that during the followup visits, which only occurred once a year, Reimer's parents routinely lied to lab staff about the success of the procedure. Twin brother Brian Reimer later proved to be schizophrenic.

Reimer had experienced the visits to Baltimore as traumatic rather than therapeutic, and when Dr. Money started pressuring the family to bring him in for surgery during which a vagina would be constructed, the family discontinued the follow-up visits; from 22 months into Brenda's teenaged years Reimer urinated through a hole surgeons had placed in the abdomen. Estrogen was given during adolescence to induce breast development. Having no contact with the family once the visits were discontinued, John Money published nothing further about the case to suggest that the reassignment had not been successful.

Reimer's later account, written two decades later with John Colapinto, described how, contrary to Money's reports, when living as Brenda, Reimer did not identify as a girl. He was ostracized and bullied by peers, and neither frilly dresses (which he was forced to wear during frigid Calgary winters) nor female hormones made him feel female. By the age of 13, Reimer was experiencing suicidal depression, and told his parents he would commit suicide if they made him see John Money again. In 1980, Reimer's parents told him the truth about his gender reassignment, following advice from Reimer's endocrinologist and psychiatrist. At 14, Reimer decided to assume a male gender identity, calling himself David. By 1997, Reimer had undergone treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. He also married a woman and became a stepfather to her three children.

His case came to international attention in 1997 when he told his story to Milton Diamond, an academic sexologist who persuaded Reimer to allow him to report the outcome in order to dissuade physicians from treating other infants similarly. Soon after, Reimer went public with his story and John Colapinto published a widely disseminated and influential account in Rolling Stone magazine in December 1997.[3] They went on to elaborate the story in a book, As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl.[2]

[edit] Death
Colapinto split the revenues from the book with Reimer, giving him financial security but not freedom from his problems. In addition to his life-long difficult relationship with his parents, Reimer had to deal with the death of his twin brother from an overdose of antidepressants in 2002, unemployment and separation from his wife Jane. On the weekend of May 2, 2004, she told him she wished to temporarily separate; Reimer stormed out of the house and did not return. On May 5 Jane Reimer received a call from the police that they had located her husband but he did not want his location revealed. Two hours later, they called again, informing her of his suicide. Reimer had returned home while she was out and retrieved a shotgun, sawing off its barrel before leaving. On that morning of May 5, he drove to the nearby parking lot of a grocery store, parked his car and fatally shot himself in the head.[4]

[edit] Social effect of David Reimer's story
The report and subsequent book about Reimer influenced several medical practices and reputations, and even current understanding of the biology of gender. The case accelerated the decline of sex reassignment and surgery for unambiguous XY male infants with micropenis, various other rare congenital malformations, and penile loss in infancy.

It supported the arguments of those who feel that prenatal and early-infantile hormones have a strong influence on brain differentiation, gender identity and perhaps other sex-dimorphic behavior. The applicability of this case to appropriate sex assignment in cases of intersex conditions involving severe deficiency of testosterone or insensitivity to its effects is more uncertain. For some people, the inability to predict gender identity in this case confirmed skepticism about doctors' abilities to do so in general, or about the wisdom of using genital reconstructive surgery to commit an infant with an intersex condition or genital defect to a specific gender role before the child is old enough to claim a gender identity. The Intersex Society of North America, who opposes involuntary sex
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Wed 29 Sep, 2010 01:32 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
doing well in school isn't consistent with he-man values.
Bullshit, doing well in school so that one can have a successful career so that one can take care of a family has ALWAYS been part of the he-man program. women telling men that this is not valued, that they can make their own money, that they dont need a man for anything is the monkey wrench that got thrown into the he-man program. What you cant get through your head is that it is important for men to feel like women not only want us, but need us. The feminists being allergic to women needing men or even lying and saying it even if it is not true is likely the root cause of this academic problem that we see with young men.
Mame
 
  1  
Wed 29 Sep, 2010 01:35 pm
@hawkeye10,
Yet another spin on it... different argument (now we don't value you so that's why you feel worthless) but same demon (women, of course!)
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Wed 29 Sep, 2010 01:38 pm
@Mame,
Quote:

Yet another spin on it... different argument (now we don't value you so that's why you feel worthless) but same demon (women, of course!)
it has nothing to do with me other than I am a man, traditionally women have both known and been willing to soothe the male ego, this happens a lot less now, and is likely at the root of a lot of the problems that men have right now.

I know this is hard for you, but could you make an effort to deal with the thread subject, it would be so much more productive than throwing turds like you do...
 

Related Topics

THIS PLACE SUCKS ! ! ! - Discussion by Setanta
Obama's Senate Replacement Must Be Black - Discussion by maporsche
A2K Is Pandering - Discussion by cjhsa
The art and science of tags - Discussion by joefromchicago
New A2K is Anti-Free Speech - Question by Brandon9000
This sucks - Discussion by cjhsa
Criminals For Gun Control - Discussion by cjhsa
vBulletin rocks, new A2K forum sux - Discussion by Chumly
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.09 seconds on 12/12/2024 at 05:55:15