Racism cured or only in temporary remission?

Which is why i'm not thrilled with the idea of my daughter marrying a human bean . . . too unstable, too volatile . . .

Not to mention prone to bad gas...never pleasant, unless you are male, and alone.

Noah,

No one is disagreeing that the "social economic gaps between blacks and whites .... are due to ... slavery, colonization, Jim Crow exploitation" etc. etc. etc.

But you are making a very big leap when you say "Most whites are racist" and an even bigger leap when you say "whites believe in white supremacy".

When you accused Craven and others of latent white supremacy just because he disagrees with you, you crossed the line into complete blind absurdity.

You've have got a lot of pent up anger inside.

Most of us of all races are just trying to live a good life now. I like the fact that I have good friends I can trust of many races, and if someone treats me decently, the color of her skin doesn't matter at all.

Of course broad social issue do matter. Trying to get underrepresented groups (be they Black, Latino or poor) is important goal that I (and I suspect most of us here) support.

But what is this anger going to get you.

I am aware of the fact that some of my ancestors oppressed some of my other ancestors. But so what.

I am worried about living a decent life and teaching my children to do the same. Unless you are personally 400 years old and experienced all of this oppression, I would suggest you do the same.

Setanta, Wrong, what I proposed is that the doctrine of white supremacy existed in the past as so-called white scientist and scholars propagated this belief as science. This is not just a PAST phenomenon either, just go to your local bookstore and pick up a copy of “The Bell Curve”. However, I digress. I never stated that the doctrine of what supremacy was at the root of cause of slavery. Long ago I stated that ECONOMICS was the root cause of black exploitation and that black inferiority was simply the pretext or rationalization that needed to be provided to a religious society. Thus, blacks were characterized as savages and uncivilized and that exposure to whites, even as slaves, would be to the benefit of blacks.

I don't think anyone disagreed that economics was the root of black exploitation there, Noah. It was many other portions of your thesis that were in question.

The bottom-line, that all of you keep filibustering, is the notion that if people are poor, relative to others, not due to external factors, then why are they poor? If blacks are not poorer than whites due to external factors, then why are they poorer than whites? This is not rocket science. Heck, it is not even primary school arithmetic. To suggest that blacks are not poor due to external factors leaves black disproportionate poverty to be the result of internal factors, which could only mean that blacks are inferior. Thus, I have a right and logical validity to say that people who assume the internal as causing disproportionate black poverty are racist. You cannot speak for these other people Mr. Brown. The fact that you made the statement acknowledging the external does not mean that you can and do speak for the others. They could easily do as you have done, but they are not……you should wonder what is creating their inertia to go on record and stop trying to blast me for pointing out the obvious.

Almost his entire thesis is questionable. Noah, i'm trying to point out to you that personal desires for acquisition motivate people. Slavery in the United States was an isolated phenomenon, and does not resemble the history of slavery anywhere else in any period of history. It was indeed the "peculiar institution," because it was never economically viable, and the slave-owners were routinely exploited economically by those who bought their products, mostly tobacco and cotton. To use that isolated and historically unique example of the exploitation of one race by another as a basis for a contention that most white people believe in white supremacy is simply wrong-headed, and it comes out as racist, because it attributes a negative characteristic to an entire class of people based soley upon the color of their skin--the very reasonable objection you make in the spurious examples you have advanced with the contention that "most" white people think a certain way.

Slavery was the disease of the ancient world, and it brought down empires. Those who lived in those empires did not understand the economic equations which assured their decline because of the pervasiveness of slavery. The American example is unique, because the political power of the South allowed them to maintain an economically diseased system through the prosperity of the whole nation--but only so long as the North did not object. The historical record is very clear on the subject of slavery--it does not work economically, unless imposed and maintained from above, as in the case of the Roman senatorial class, or the of the Southern planters in the United States--which is a circumstance which only delays the inevitable collapse of the institution.

The legacy of slavery in the United States has been a particularly virulent racism. Of course it is not cured, and i would not even say that it is in remission. Racism has been with the human race throughout time, and probably always will be. That lesson of history ought to call upon us all to oppose any racist ideas. That includes the idea that most white people believe in white supremacy.

Cav has the low down skinny on this one--the innate bigotry of human groups, of "the tribe," leads to notions of group superiority, and racism is simply an example of one variation on an ancient theme.

Noah,

You say,

"To suggest that blacks are not poor due to external factors leaves black disproportionate poverty to be the result of internal factors, which could only mean that blacks are inferior. Thus, I have a right and logical validity to say that people who assume the internal as causing disproportionate black poverty are racist."

But no one here has said this except for you.

And thus you do not have the right or the logical validity to say that either people here, or white people in general are racist.

QED.

Have you ever heard of pleading the fifth to avoid self-incrimination? Why do these people refuse to answer a simply proposition? What are they hiding and whom are they protecting? Certainly the question does not require much intellect to answer. If a problem is not externally rooted, then what are the other options? It’s just that simple.

Setanta, what you postulate are some historical accurate events, however, they do not negate the prevalence of the belief in white supremacy by most whites. How does it? How do white rationalize their being at the top of the world, the most wealth and most powerful? Did you all work harder and smarter than others?

Noah, you dismissed Setenta's very valid point as a filibuster. Why? His post was as relevant as any I've read on this thread.
I'm too ignorant to comment on the entire world, but in the USA Black people's opportunities are continuing to increase very rapidly. Is it too much to just accept that historical prejudices have started black cultures at the back of the pack, and they have not, as of yet, had enough time to catch up?
Your opening question is indicative of your recognition that a great deal of progress has been made. The world wasn't built in a day. Are you really that unsatisfied with the progress of our current generation? The lack of hatred exhibited in this entire thread should show you; you are wrong. As a selfish "individualist" I can assure you my comments are not affected by concerns of consensus. My opinions are completely candid.
Black people in my country clearly begin with larger hurdles than most. Assessing blame for this phenomenon will not help your plight in any way. I submit that those hurdles are getting smaller all the time, so what are you so upset about?
Someone as clearly intelligent as yourself; should realize that you are better equipped for success in this country than the vast majority of people regardless of their race. If you spend as much energy striving for success, as you do shouting at the rain, I am confident you will enjoy a great deal of success.

Racism is not about hate. Racism is about ignorance. One can have all the best of intentions and still produce the effect of maintaining or increasing the social and economic racial gaps. Thus, I believe that many people want to remain ignorant so that they can be happy and not worry about the moral implications or effects of their activity and beliefs.

The most effective economic system ever developed has been the system of exploitation. It is the historical tried and true method of one group of people lifting themselves up, from the equal and opposite action of oppressing others. Benevolence has never built an empire of wealth and riches on this earth. Nice guys finish last did not develop as an adage out of ignorance. The truth is that exploitation is alive and well. America (via transnational corporations) has simply gone global, as opposed to domestic and local, with its exploitation.

No one ever stops to calculate why despite capitalism and democracy existing in the world to a much greater degree today than 30 years ago, the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few continue to increase. However, this is for another topic.

What you all should realize is that every nation that rises, falls. To assume that time is on the side of black people, is incredulous. Blacks should be able to enjoy the fruits of the zenith of America, just like white people. Maybe in 100 years, when America is simply another mediocre nation, then blacks will have equality and white standards of living diminish in this nation, down to the level of blacks. That still cheats black people out of all that our ancestors put into this nation.

Okay Noah, now you are making sweeping generalizations. Chances are, in 100 years, more people will be brown.

Slavery was simply the most extreme example of maximizing profit via reducing labor cost. People had their freedom taken away, simply because individuals would not volunteer to be exploited to such extremes, from their free will. However, today, the fact that there is a volunteer component to exploitation, makes is seem less insidious than forcing it via slavery and indeed it is. However, if you remove viable OPTIONS for a person to survive by other means, then you can force them to volunteer to be exploited by the “system”. Again, the goal being to maximize profits by reducing the cost of labor. Thus, this volunteer nature of capitalism does creates millions of indentured servants, who are dependent upon the owners of capital to provide work that they may survive. That is simply a step above slavery.

And those people who do not want to become beholden and "dependent upon the owners of capital", do not do so. They work their rumps off, and start their own small businesses. And if they are successful, they too, can become capitalists. That is the glory of the capitalist system!

Everyone cannot be the owners of capital at one time. Thus, the master slave relationship must always exist. If everyone could be masters, with no slaves, then I would thinkt he system is fair...but they can't. Thus, its exploit or be exploited. Thats a bad choice for civilized and moral people.

Noah, you clearly like to speak more than listen. This paragraph is ridiculous. The most effective economic system ever developed is capitalism. Hands down, no comparison. I repeat; go to
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html
and investigate it for yourself.
Setanta fortified the error in this paragraph and you ignored it. I've given you the link to investigate it, and you've ignored it.
You, yourself, are doing more to propetuate racism than any other person on this thread. If you truly have a desire to learn, then listen to the responses to your statements. I've detected no malice... just honest replies, that you continue to ignore.

I can't believe we are still talking about this. Noah's thesis is so all over the place, hell knows what he's talking about. In LIFE, there are those who are born to be boss, and those who are not, period. How successful they turn out to be is irrelevant. How they choose to run a business and hire is irrelevant. It's all about how one chooses to face their life, and overcome not only societal disfunction, but their own weaknesses as well.

Noah The African- And what would YOU suggest as a solution to what you are postulating?

This post is even more ridiculous than the last. Every system in history that tried to distribute wealth equally, was a total disaster. Examine lottery winners ten years after winning and you will see those that were economically responsible before winning usually still are. Meanwhile those that were irresponsible frequently squander their good fortune (pun intended).
Until you learn to accept that people who earn their capital are entitled to its advantages, you will never understand the fairness of capitalism.
I repeat, Noah, with your obvious intelligence, YOU have a greater advantage than your average white man. Use it... and YOU will have an impact on the ratios you are criticizing!

Wrong! Racism is hate caused by ignorance. Prejudice can be based on ignorance or preference.
Every single human being has some prejudices but racism is an ugly reaction to ignorance and not the same thing.