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Racism cured or only in temporary remission?

 
 
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 10:38 am
Ok, lets see here. Let me see if I have your rebuttals strait, just so you will know that I have integrated these thoughts into my premise, inference and conclusion. All the slaves in America are dead and gone along with their masters. Most Americans ancestors immigrated to America post slavery and thus played no part in it. Blacks in Africa sold their own brothers and sisters into slavery. Every ethnicity was oppressed at one or another time in history and black oppression was nothing unique. The Irish were oppressed greatly too, but they overcame. The Jews were oppressed too, but they have risen to the top. People of today cannot and should not be held responsible for acts of people in the past. Some of your best friends are black. You have dated black people. You do not see color. Blacks are just as racist as whites thus negating the effects of white racism. No one is a racist except those bringing up the history of racism in America. Ok, do we have that out of the way or have I missed something?

Notwithstanding these rationalizations, cognitive dissonance and intentional assertions (prevarications) are the facts on the ground, today, concerning the state of black humanity in this nation and world and how one reconciles it. Everywhere on this planet, black people are worse off than the non-black people in juxtaposition. Here in America, despite having ancestors in this nation for many generations, blacks are at the bottom of the social and economic ladder, save the Native Americans. In the Caribbean, blacks are poorer than non-blacks living there. In Central and South America, blacks are poorer than non-blacks living there. Even in Africa, blacks in Africa are poorer than non-blacks sharing their nations. This is unacceptable. But why are these the facts today?

It is how one answers this fundamental question of why, which determines their character. How does the conscious or subconscious mind reconcile this reality if you are black or white? The options are generally binary, in that this racial reality generally is reconciled to be the product of nature or nurture. Typically, most black people consciously see the gaps in social and economic circumstance as being the nurturing of centuries of exploitation, colonization and manipulation by non-black people upon black peoples. Conversely, most white people see these gaps not to be the product of others, but a nature endemic to black peoples. For example, many whites see the problems of Africa as the result of corruption. They also see the problems of blacks in America to be rooted in a lack of a positive work ethic and the inability to be responsible parents and not the accrued effects of past and present exploitation or discrimination. This is why it is ubiquitously suggested that blacks work hard like everyone else, as the solution to our problems, as if we have not worked hard since our ancestors were taken here.

The issue is not the truth or falsity of the proposition of corruption, laziness, intellectual achievement problems and irresponsible behavior existing among black people, for it does. The issue and problem comes from the inference that these traits or tendencies are endemic to black people, more so than others. It logically follows that if people recognize social and economic gaps between blacks and whites and reconcile these gaps to be the product of the traits mentioned before, then the inference is that these traits occur more in blacks than others. The reason being is that if one assumed that all groups have equal probability of producing such traits, then these traits could not and would not manifest social and economic differences between races because they would equally hold all races back and not manifest racial differences. Thus, what is really being inferred in the nature argument, is the genetic inferiority of black people, which some try to euphemize as “cultural inferiority”, or some other unobservable (innate) variable that results in black failure relative to whites.

In the end, the true test of character can only be accurately measured in times of stress and challenge, which Americans have not really experienced in the last 30 years. Primarily economic stress and or economic greed are what created fueled the oppression of black people. However, the economic stress could return at any time and will inevitably return as all great nations and empires have eventually fallen from their zenith and greed will never fade. Thus, when the stress returns, the rational assumption of black intellectual and behavioral genetic inferiority will give whites in the future the pretext for committing over acts of discrimination as they once did in the past. For when things get tough for humans, they tend to regress back to old visceral tendencies and behaviors that worked in the past.

In conclusion, it is not how one feels about a particular black person, for we all recognize exceptions exist to general rules. Thus, it is not how one feels about the blacks that they know casually or intimately, that determines if one is a racist. Rather, it is how one feels about the blacks that they do not know and how they reconcile the problems black people face in this world, relative to whites. This is why I am left to believe that most white people are believers in black inferiority and hence, racist.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 15,477 • Replies: 357
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Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 10:43 am
Well, now I know how I think about this issue, howabout telling me how I feel on abortion, cloning, immigration, taxes, politics, foreign affairs, the dewey decimal system..............
I could go on.
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onyxelle
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 10:44 am
as a Black Woman, Noah, I'm not even touching this....yet. well, I'll say this: this irks me a bit "most white people"
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 10:49 am
How long exactly has whitey had his foot on your neck?
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 10:51 am
http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 10:56 am
I tend to think that in the context of a debate or intellectual exchange of ideas, that how one FEELS is not at all germane. My thesis was not predicated upon feelings and emotions, but rather, facts, premises interferences and a conclusion. Emotions and feelings is not relevant in this discourse, neither are cute little non substantive responses like the first detractor presented.

This is really very simple, as I have presented several propositions and inferences. If one thus wants to repudiate or discredit them, then one should start by stating what particular proposition is erroneous and the reason why, followed by what is right. A child can simply say they disagree, but we all know that a child generally disagrees due to the ignorance of an immature and unlearned mind.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:13 am
Noah, an adversarial post, particularly from a brand new member that no one has any emotional investment in does not warrant a substantive response. thanks for getting that.

You have removed the desire for reasonable discourse by coming out of the box swinging and begun your A2K career by establishing your intellectual supremacy out of the box, and then insulting me, one of A2K's most beloved members.

Okay, I made that part up. :wink:


Then to ice the cake you've already said you think most white people are racist. I don't detect "can anyone change my mind" anywhere in your post. I don't see much room for discourse.

I do however see ample proof in your post that whites have no stranglehold on racism or generalization. Thanks for bringing that out.


Enjoy yourself and welcome to A2K, and do try to relax.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:16 am
Noah The African wrote:
I tend to think that in the context of a debate or intellectual exchange of ideas, that how one FEELS is not at all germane. My thesis was not predicated upon feelings and emotions, but rather, facts, premises interferences and a conclusion.


You forgot to mention "wild guesses" in your list of things here.

Reread your last two paragraphs above. You come to a final conclusion concerning an entire race by observing a limited number of people from within that race and base your conclusion on your own predictions of events that may or may not happen in the future.

For your conclusions to be valid you would have to have observed the actual reactions of the majority of whites to a given input.

Guessing what "most whites" will or won't do in response to things that may or may not happen in the future is a perfect example of racism.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:21 am
Next time you use a term like “adversarial” please provide a working definition, for my understanding of the term fails to characterize my thesis. If the context of this forum genre includes DEBATE, then implicit in debating is the concept of an adversary. However, my thesis is presented as facts, inference and conclusion and not an attack. Its simply a proposition and to the degree that one agrees or disagrees, thus manifest adversaries and allies.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:29 am
I have made intellectual hypothesis, not wild guesses. I do not know most white people and neither do you. Thus, you cannot negate the validity of my statement by saying that I do not know all or most white people, because you have not observed them all to know that I am wrong or right. However, the failure of anyone thus far, to offer an explanation to the question of why blacks on this planet live below the norm of white humanity economically is very telling, because the trap and truth of a person’s racial character will thus be captured. Thus, filibustering and subterfuge avoid having to answer the relevant propositions, which thus prevents the truth of racism existence in you being revealed via your rational cognitions, if not emotional temperament.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:47 am
Noah The African wrote:
I have made intellectual hypothesis, not wild guesses. I do not know most white people and neither do you. Thus, you cannot negate the validity of my statement by saying that I do not know all or most white people, because you have not observed them all to know that I am wrong or right.


I don't have to know whether you actually did or not. For one to know 200+ million people well enough to make any sort of educated guess as to how they'd react would take more time that is available to anyone in a normal lifetime so if you actually had you wouldn't have time to be posting here.

Quote:
However, the failure of anyone thus far, to offer an explanation to the question of why blacks on this planet live below the norm of white humanity economically is very telling, because the trap and truth of a person's racial character will thus be captured.


Perhaps people aren't responding to that question because you never asked it? lol You posted a treatise without asking any questions. It seemed to me that you were heading off in an entirely different direction.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:48 am
Noah, you hypothesis is not very intellectual.

Your thesis seems to be "most white people are racist". You did nothing to support this rather inflammatory hypothesis with fact. You say that racisim is a feeling, but you give absolutely no evidence about how "most white people" feel.

The rest of your rather long diatribe does nothing to support your thesis.

You also need to address the irony of your rant. When you base your feeling about a group of people based on their race (as your post does), it is by definition racism.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:49 am
Noah
That's all nonsense. You couldln't possibly know what most white people think and feel.

I for one could care less if what color you are. You could be green, purple, or blue and I wouldn't treat you any differently as I treat anyone else.

Welcome to A2K where we have a huge variety of people in all colors, shapes and sizes. It's a very nice community, so look around and see for yourself.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:51 am
I would also point out that the victims of the strongest racism in the US right now are Arabs.

I would argue that historically racism has never disappeared. It merely changes targets...

But that is perhaps for a different post.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:53 am
ebrown_p wrote:


You also need to address the irony of your rant. When you base your feeling about a group of people based on their race (as your post does), it is by definition racism.


I was also going to say this, but ebrown beat me to it.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 11:57 am
You guys were supposed to come roaring on and say "that's right!!! Bi-polar is well loved here so stop picking on him!!!" I'm crushed...... Crying or Very sad
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 12:03 pm
Now now bear. I thought it was a given. Everybody knows you are well loved here on A2K! Wink
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Sugar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 12:03 pm
I believe the question is - "Racism cured or only in temporary remission?"

However, I also conclude the answer to be that it is neither.

If "...most white people are believers in black inferiority and hence, racist..." and "blacks are at the bottom of the social and economic ladder" then the only answer could be that is neither cured nor in remission. It is alive and well as most white people are racist and at the top of the social and economic ladder.

As for my own answer, well, "it is how one feels about the blacks that they do not know and how they reconcile the problems black people face in this world, relative to whites". Yet, I am a white woman and in accordance with Noah's "thesis is presented as facts", I am therefore a racist. In conclusion, my feelings are a moot point coming from my factual white racist experiences, actions and background.
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 12:06 pm
OK, you get a (((((hug))))), but no drugs, reality is strange enough.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2003 12:07 pm
Well, polling companies and actuaries use statistical sampling all to time, to extrapolate from the few, what is true for the whole. However, what is true for the whole cannot be assumed to be true of its parts and what is true of a part cannot be assumed true for the whole. The nations unemployment rate is simply a SURVEY of 50,000 households; yet, they (the government) extrapolate the general unemployment figure of the nation. Sampling is done all the time and accepted as being accurate given an acceptable standard deviation, thus, your attempts to invalidate my proposition, simply because I have not observed or polled all or the majority of whites, is disingenuous and ignorant at the very least.

Furthermore, I never stated that racism was a felling. I proposed that whites cognitively reason, that blacks are inferior and thus, these rational cognitions results in the phenomenon of being racist. Most white people erroneously link racism to EMOTIONS of dislike or hate. Thus, since most white people likely do not harbor hatred or dislike for black people, they do not see themselves are racist, by their definition of what racism is. However, this ignores the non-emotional cognitions of the rational mind, which can and does draw negative conclusions about black people. It is the rational cognitions, whether conscious or subconscious, that makes most white people racist today. In the past, say 50 years ago, most white racists were emotional and rational racist. Today, the emotions have greatly faded, just leaving the rational racism behind.
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