Racism cured or only in temporary remission?

Centrolis, your conclusion is correct. I was not presenting white supremacy as the cause, as you seem to have interpreted, rather, I was presenting it as being the root of most whites rationalizations as to why these racial gaps exist. To acknowledge what you have acknowledged opens up a Pandora’s box for recrimination and reparations of past injustices.

Yikes, this one might get me in trouble. I, as you can see by my avatar, I am a stereotypical white man. I would like to think I exercise no racist beliefs, but that's not true.
When hiring sales people; I hire the most qualified applicants, but; I assume in advance that the black applicants are not likely to perform as well as their equally qualified white counterparts. Black applicants with ethnic sounding names or speech are far less likely to meet quota. I've measured the performance of hundreds of sales persons, while selling tens of thousands of products. As a capitalist, my aspiration is to make as much money as possible. The best person for the job, is the one that is most profitable to employ. Perhaps the white majority in America is less likely to buy from blacks. Perhaps the blacks I've hired lacked the social skills to match their white counterparts performance. Perhaps blacks don't try to sell as hard as whites (this one I know is false). Perhaps I'm a closet racist who lies about the observed results in order to justify my racism (also false). Regardless of the reason, the results remain the same. I've heard of Sales managers who automatically: "If the first name ryhmes with honda, the application goes in the circular file." Unfair? Certainly. Ecconomically sound? Probably. Racially biased? Definitely. Sales 'Leads" can be tremendously expensive to generate. A closing ratio variation of 1% is enormous! My companies profit margin is frequently less than 1%.
Conclusion: Ecconomic resposibility sometimes overrides my desire to be racially blind. The ugly truth is that this fiscal reality does help propetuate Noah's claims.

So, people with African ancestors have a bit of a dissadvantage when looking for work... So what. So do fat people. So do ugly people. So do intellectually challanged people. Depending on where you are; an accent from New York or Georgia will put you at a disadvantage. Young people, old people, tall people, short people are all disadvantaged as well.

It is my contention that every single person is an individual. We all have our crosses to carry. I've read about people with Down Syndrome gratuating college. The person most responsible for success or failure, in this country at least, is the person you look at in the mirror. Am I a racist?

Yuuucckkk,

Noah, you and I will probably agree about Bill's views.

Fortunately Bill does not represent the ideas held by most white people. Bill may be the "stereotype", but most White people are ashamed of this viewpoint.

What is ironic is that you and Bill are not that far apart. You both make assumptions based on race and you are both rationalizing your own particular form of racism.

You have confused me, Noah -

"Thus, when the stress returns, the rational assumption of black intellectual and behavioral genetic inferiority will give whites in the future the pretext for committing over acts of discrimination as they once did in the past. For when things get tough for humans, they tend to regress back to old visceral tendencies and behaviors that worked in the past."

You appear to posit that racism is "rational" AND that it is a "visceral tendency".

How can it be rational? Are you arguing that it is so because it is congruent with certain underlying beliefs? - I would say then, that, at best, it is logical. (And that with a very narrow definition of logic) Rationality to me implies a higher level demand - ie that the premises upon which one bases one's thinking are subjected to rigorous scrutiny. The premises upon which you assume racism to lie do not stand up to such scrutiny - therefore I cannot see racism as rational.

When you come to the visceral, I am more likely to be with you - I would not deny that I am racist to some degree, since so many of the unthinking assumptions that I was brought up with were racist - not overtly, but there nonetheless. These are hard to extirpate absolutely, no? And not just for whites - many cultures are racist. However, I use rationality as well as feeling ( I THINK anger at injustice is a feeling, rather than a thought?) to overcome unconscious racism.

Hmm...I'll tread the waters here...guess what. We are all racist, and most of us just trying to grab a piece of the pie, controlled by a very small group of extremely rich people who may even being subtly trying to polarize us all, in order to keep us fighting, should you buy into a bit of conspiracy theory. Bottom line is, we are all human beings, and it is up to every individual to make their lives work for them. I don't give a flying crap what race anyone is, even in hiring, as long as they are qualified to do the job. How many popular racist perceptions within the Black community do you want to get into? Africans work harder than Jamaicans, and are less likely to get into bad situations with drugs and gangs....Trindidadian Blacks are better than the more poor Tobago Blacks, what the hell? I know plenty of people of every race who live way better than I do. Oh, does that make ME racist? Will you assume that I'm jealous at a non-white usurping my "rightful" place in the world? Please...get over it. We all fight for the same goals. If we could learn to understand each other better, that would be much more helpful than ruminating about how whites naturally tend towards racism. Incidentally, those weren't my ancestors.

Not so fast ebrown... My assumptions are base on accumulated data, not race. In fact, I would prefer the data to say otherwise, but it doesn't. I can easily ignore an opinion based on my own ignorance. I can't easily ignore an opinion based on facts. Not when it comes to money. I am, through no fault of my own, faced with an economic reality that rationalizes racism. It is not my preference.

Some of us have a very hard time being racist.

Let's see, my immediate family is a mixture of African American, German, English, Irish and Mexican. By marriage we add Native American and French.

So whom should I hate?

----
"Help, I am being repressed!"

hate me ebrown I'm 50% scotch, 50% soda.......
I'm so drunk it won't hurt my feelings......

ebrown_p, I've got Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Chinese, Blacks and Japanese. Which ones do I not invite for the holidays? Love the Monty Python tagline.

Bill, let's say that 'accumulated data' says I have no intent to pay certain small debts, which I absolutely do. Does it make me a deadbeat just because of a slow cashflow? Or, let's put it this way: If you were say, a creditor, would you trust me more if I were white to eventually pay, and thus give me more leeway on catching up?

damn cav catholics and jews? You don't know whether to kill Jesus or molest an altar boy do ya? :wink:

(I figured we could always use a little more stereotyping.....)

So, ebrown, you must be an above average athelete who is a presise, proper, happy person who places a high value on family... or a stupid, facist, snobby person who's violent when drinking and takes naps at noon.
Could anything be dumber than these assumptions? We are individuals, like cavfancier points out. Don't hold my honesty against me.

I don't think that bill hates anyone brown. he's guilty of falling victims to statistics and sterotypes. that hardly makes him hateful. i see no indication that he would harm anyone solely due to their race and probably wouldn't hesistate for a second to hire a black man who believes has the ability to sell lots of clothes.

I doesn't work that way here in the sunny south I can tell you. Drive down 70 and it's wall to wall repo'ed trailers....that's a caucasian occasion.....

Don't forget Muslims there Bear....some days I'm not sure whether or not to kill myself

Bull!

You are saying you chose money and ignorance over people and fairness.

That is your preference.

I just want to know if my creditors are being nice to me because I'm white.

cav that combination must make for some interesting fireworks at your house....good thing ya got some Chinese in there......

True, but they seem obsessed with building railroads, so they aren't often at family gatherings.

No, it's that jew thing...... everyone know jews control all the money.......oh yeah, and Hollywood.....