Racism cured or only in temporary remission?

Black people in the US live under oppression? Come on!

Have you paid attention to what the US went through in the past 50 years. You really think that the black American of today is little more than a slave.

You live in a sad world of angry fantasy.

There is an interesting world with plenty of good people of all races. Many of us are willing to honestly address real problems without living lives of bitter rage and resentment.

If you want to help the world, do what many of us do. Join a church. Work on a political campaign. Work for a charity. Help build your community. But realize that people are people everywhere. All of us are trying the best we can to make sense of the world.

Notice what happened from your post. You didn't change anyones mind. You didn't do anything to address the problems you see. All you did is insult and attack.

I suggest you get a life.

Bitter angry people have no impact on the world.

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Thanks JL, if Noah focuses a bit, and perhaps answers Phoenix's question, and stops the personal attacks, we can have a proper conversation, and I won't leave the thread.

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truth
Obvioiusly, I have only read the last page of this thread. I looked at the penultimate page and appreciated Setanta's historical contribution, although I sense that he may, like most people who dip into the historical record for insights into the present, be selective and prone to over interpretation (I don't know if this actually applies to Set--didn't give it enough examination--but it very well may apply to Noah).
But let me ask Setanta what he means by human BEAN. Could he be referring to Mexicans (who in my youth were sometimes called "beans" and "beaners"). What about Supreme Bean?

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One cannot honesty talk about a solution without a consensus of agreement about what the problem is. Problem recognition is a prerequisite to solution creation; yet, you all are attempting to leap to a solution, without first agreeing upon the root of the problem. Until you all are willing to externalize or internalize the black socioeconomic gaps relative to whites, how can one honestly talk about a solution. If a person believes that these gaps are internal to black people, they will never external remedies as a viable solution. If one sees the gaps as being external, then they will never see an internal solution as being valid. Thus, the order of precedence is that a position on the nature of the problem must be taken, before one can genuinely entertain potential solutions. Thus, the question asked by JL is simply disingenuous and more filibuster to avoid taking a position on the cause of these problem, because of the fear of being or appearing racist.

I am not looking for whites to accept any responsibility. All I am looking for is the acknowledgment of truth. Every action creates a reaction and thus, what has been the reaction upon blacks from oppression from white society? It is nature’s laws that actions will always manifest reactions and it is not about trying to make whites responsible. I am not looking for white pity or empathy, simply honesty and integrity to see and speak the truth as defined by the laws of nature. The present is the creation of the past. Actions produce reactions. Thus, the present contains reactions from 400 years of acts of racial oppression. Only a dishonest person would try to deny this. You are more concerned about protecting whites from guilt, responsibility and recrimination, than you are concerned about truth and understanding.

JL, furthermore, do not try to handle me. All this talk about “race” being a social construct is a moot point. America, or more precisely, the United States of America, is a human geographical and political construct, which separates and divides resources and opportunities from others. Thus, the concept of “Race” is no less insidious than is the concept of nationality. Man made borders which divides land and resources from other humans, servers the same historical purpose as the division or opportunity by race. It is again and ”us against them” human concept rooted in economic hegemony. Thus, when you chill out about being an amorphous, misnomer of an “American” than I will chill out about race.

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Noah The African wrote:

That's not the question cavFancier. The question is what accounts for the social and economic gaps between blacks and whites, if not the years of oppression and manipulation upon black peoples, by white peoples? If these gaps are not due to external and social manipulation, what are they due to? Do you agree that the gaps are caused by the history of white social and economic oppression of blacks? Do you think it was something else that causes it? If so, then what? Maybe you just refuse to think about it and thus are ignorant? Is not ignorance often part and parcel to racism?

I agree that it's largely external but that's far more inclusive than a simplistic "It has to be whites!" explanation.

External circumstantial causes are not in any way limited to social dynamics.

You positing this as a choice between being a racist or saying all black woes are due to the white devils is laughable.

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truth
Truly, Noah, you should take a pill before coming on-line. Can't you see that I HAVE acknowledged the "external" determinants of ethnic economic and educational inequalities in America? And how do you conclude, without some psychic capability, that I am being disingenous? I have no idea at all of the meaning of your last sentence. Do you want me to identify myself "racially?" That would reveal you to be a racist.

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My race is "Bengal". Can't you tell by looking at me?

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Noah The African wrote:

One cannot honesty talk about a solution without a consensus of agreement about what the problem is.

More complete bull. Your racial insults are not nearly as insulting as your complete disregard for logic while trying to assume a position of logical superiority.

Noah The African wrote:

Until you all are willing to externalize or internalize the black socioeconomic gaps relative to whites, how can one honestly talk about a solution.

For starters you can give up the idiotic dualism and try a non-binary approach.

Noah The African wrote:

If a person believes that these gaps are internal to black people, they will never external remedies as a viable solution.

They probably won't. Correct.

Quote:

If one sees the gaps as being external, then they will never see an internal solution as being valid. Thus, the order of precedence is that a position on the nature of the problem must be taken, before one can genuinely entertain potential solutions.

This is where you delve into absurdity.

The choices are not "either/or".

Earlier someone (I believe it was Sugar) mentioned that it takes an effort from all. I agree.

I reject the notion that black poverty is due to genetics. I reject the equally absurd notion that black poverty is entirely externally sourced.

Quote:

Thus, the question asked by JL is simply disingenuous and more filibuster to avoid taking a position on the cause of these problem, because of the fear of being or appearing racist.

This is one of those brainfarts that make no sense and just portray you as an angry, if not too intelligent, man.

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I am not looking for whites to accept any responsibility. All I am looking for is the acknowledgment of truth.

Then you would do well to stop touting your brainfarts as truth.

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Every action creates a reaction and thus, what has been the reaction upon blacks from oppression from white society?

One reaction is this type of idiotic drivel where you get up on a soap box and set aside a special time to make a fool out of yourself in public.

Quote:

Only a dishonest person would try to deny this. You are more concerned about protecting whites from guilt, responsibility and recrimination, than you are concerned about truth and understanding.

You mistakenly assume you have "truth" to tout.

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JL, furthermore, do not try to handle me.

LOL you sound like a little angry child.

Quote:

Thus, when you chill out about being an amorphous, misnomer of an "American" than I will chill out about race.

No you won't. You'll continue to do a disservice to your race by your mental flatulence and you'll exacerbate this by a lack of basic social skills and unwarranted anger.

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Sorry JL, my bad...as I said before...all you detractors look (read) alike to me. That was Phoenix who asked for a solution:

Anyway, recognizing and examining race as a social construct is not the same as recognizing it as a biological reality. Thus, you can call me a racist all you want, for I am...in the soical context. However, I do not believe in racial superiority as most of you all do.

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LOL, you can't even demonstrate elementary reading comprehension skills and you seek to establish that we all believe in racial superiority?

This without being able to read correctly?

Laughing

Thus far you have imagined insults to you by Sugar and others. I think you call people racist because of your overactive imagination and inability to discern between your imagined insults and reality.

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JL Setanta was just farting around with words...he does that if you will take notice.....no racial slur intended.....I believe this is a rare case where I can speak for someone else....

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I also predicted that one would try to discredit the messenger approach. You may very well be able to discredit the fact that I pay attention to names or alias on this forum, because I don’t. All your rebuttals simply run together, as all of you are detractors or opponents to me and or what I have to say. Thus, I really just lump you all together and don’t treat you as individuals. I take what I feel are the most profound points and try to answer them and I do not always get it correct who stated them and I am not going to make any special efforts to due such going forward. Thus…..GUILTY as charged. However, it is a logical fallacy to suggest that if someone is wrong about one thing, that they are therefore wrong about another. People who have to revert to logical fallacies are usually people engaging in the art of deception.

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Noah The African wrote:

I also predicted that one would try to discredit the messenger approach. You may very well be able to discredit the fact that I pay attention to names or alias on this forum, because I don't.

The "messenger" (read lone voice crying and wailing in the wilderness) deserves to be discredited for imagining insults and reacting to these imagined wrongs.

The imaginary people who insult you in your mind are no reason to vent on the people here. This is evidence of your deaply seated white supremacist position.

Quote:

However, it is a logical fallacy to suggest that if someone is wrong about one thing, that they are therefore wrong about another. People who have to revert to logical fallacies are usually people engaging in the art of deception.

Yes, and it's a logical fallacy to suggest that we were talking about different things. I mentioned your penchant for imagining insults to you that did not take place and then attacking your perceived enemy based upon your delusion of what happened.

You imagined the insults to you, and reacted based upon that inability to read and comprehend basic English.

Therefore your reactions to these imagined wrong doings are unwarranted.

It's just the white supremacist in you. ;-)

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truth
Noah, if I were a white supremacist trying to create in whites a negative picture of blacks, I would disguise myself as a black and argue exactly as you have. But notice the similarity between you and the supremacist. You both over generalize the attitudes of the "other" category of people. If I understand you, you say you don't want to take an individualist perspective, that the problem is really not that of individual mentalities but of inter-group opposition. I understand that to some extent. But when you are talking to individuals try to remember that you are not talking to a group. Judging individuals in terms of group stereotypes is one of the properties of racism, as you must know.

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Ok, lets see, I am discredited because I cannot read or comprehend Basic English. I am discredited because I don not always properly map words to their author. Lets see…. I am also discredited because I have the audacity to believe that an “insult” is a subjective and not objective phenomenon. Wow. I was getting worried there for a minute…I thought you were going to discredit the substance of my thesis.

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JL, if you can accept the fact that a person can be president of this nation by a simply plurality of votes, then you should be able to accept generalizations about white people. Most white people could be 51% of whites or it could be 99% of whites. When I say white, I am simply referring to the general rule, but I do recognize exceptions. When a person is elected president, he is elected by the general rule of the way people voted. The fact that exceptions to the general rule of the way people voted does not negate the validity of the presidency. Thus, if you can accept the president being the president without a consensus, then why do you have so much trouble accepting generalization (rules) about white people?

Furthermore, I reject the comparison with white supremist from the simply fact that the result of my beliefs would result in greater equality, if carried to fruition, while the result of white supremist is to maintain white supremacy of conditions socially and economically.

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Re: truth

JLNobody wrote:

Noah, if I were a white supremacist trying to create in whites a negative picture of blacks, I would disguise myself as a black and argue exactly as you have.

This was my impression as well. Noah is the posterboy for white supremacists and how they would have us perceive blacks.

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Noah, let's keep it real. You are being discredited because you came out of the box swinging, presented as spoiling for a fight, have demonstrated no desire except to insult and fight, and therefore no one respects or gives a **** about your opinion because it's not an opinion, and since no one knows you and has no emotional investment in you as a long time poster or member of this community, then quite frankly no one gives a **** about you, an anonymous cyber ranter.

This is a public forum and all may take part as long as TOS is observed, but I would suggest, and this is just me, that your time would be more enjoyably spent meeting with those of like mind in a meeting hall and planning the revolution.

Meanwhile, if my posts to you in this thread seem disrespectful of you, let me assure it's because I utterly disrespect your post, your opinion, your attitude, and, on short acquaintance you, whoever you are.

Have a great day.

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Noah The African wrote:

Ok, lets see, I am discredited because I cannot read or comprehend Basic English. I am discredited because I don not always properly map words to their author. Lets see. I am also discredited because I have the audacity to believe that an "insult" is a subjective and not objective phenomenon. Wow. I was getting worried there for a minuteI thought you were going to discredit the substance of my thesis.

Yoiur thesis discredits itself. And I have addressed the fallacious binary approach you take.

What I was discredting my mentioning your inability to distinguish real insults from imagined ones was your penchant for calling people racists.

See, you insulted Sugar and stated as a reason something she never said. You imagined her insulting you and reciprocated to an non-existent act. You imagined other insults to you and did the same to others.

That must mean you are a white supremacist. << Two can play your game. Laughing

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I think that that comment is subterfuge. I do not think that the issue is about me giving people rationalizations to dislike blacks, based upon what I have to say. I think that the only relevant contextual issue here is arguments that serve to prove the invalidity of my proposition as truth and falsity is the only thing germane to this discussion. The saying, “The Truth hurts” is born from the recognition that truth often brings people pain and thus people who bring pain, via truth, will not be received well by others. Thus, the fact that whites get upset or use me as a recruiting tool to white supremacy organization speaks nothing of the validity or invalidity of what I have said. If people were biologically programmed to get upset ONLY about a non-truth, then I would head the reaction of whites to what I postulate, however, if the emperor thinks he has cloths on, but does not and I tell him so, he is likely to get angry about the truth.

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Racism cured or only in temporary remission?

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