what is the beggining of philosophy?

However, some "science" is involved when logic is required to arrive at the correct conclusion. Otherwise, it is a mental calisthenics that requires knowledge about the subject being discussed.

If you mean that unless we have reason to believe the premises are true, we don't (without independent information) have any reason to believe that the conclusion is true, that is right. Whether we always need science (I don't know what you mean by "science") to do that, is dubious. I have good reason to believe that it is true that I own a car because I also have good reason to think that I purchased that car the other week, and because I have good reason to think that I own what I purchase. There does not seem to be any science involved here.

kenneth, I didn't say "always." Your perception about philosophy misses the point; it's not about "buying a car."

It was not about philosophy, except insofar as it is about logic, and logic in an important part of philosophy. Even when the conclusion of an argument does follow from the premises, you have no good reason to believe that the conclusion is true unless you also have good reason to believe that the premises are true. So that you need more than a good reason to believe that the conclusion follows from the premises in order to have a good reason to believe that the conclusion is true. Now, in order to have a good reason to believe that the premises are true (so you can have-in addition to knowing that the conclusion follows from the premises- good reason to believe the conclusion is true) you will need to find out whether there is good reason to believe that the premises are true. That will require some way to discover whether there is such good reason, and that will frequently require some observation and inference from observation. But that may just require ordinary commonsense and not the kind of organized commonsense we call "science". My example of an argument about buying a car was just that, and example of an argument. It had nothing essential to do with buying a car. I could have used many other illustrations to make the same point.

It's a struggle to read your posts; sorry.

Yes, I can see how it must be. Many times they even contain arguments, and you are probably not accustomed to that.

"Some people would rather die than think, and many do". (Bertrand Russell).

Your post contains repetitive arguments.

Very articulated in my opinion! I will have to stop complementing you all the time as others also need to be complemented. Not that you do not seem to get it correct more often than others but because others have a wild imagination when one is always complementing someone.
Others need to be complemented as well so that they will seem as a part of the group and the subject matter being discussed. But as always I am extremely impressed with your work.

You are too kind!!!

Gee ci. I never thought I would see you admit to your general stupidity. Ken's post was as easy to follow as the instructions on a jar of jam. And as sensible.

I think philosophy began with the discovery of alcohol. And two chaps leaning on a bar with one saying "Well Fred--what's it all about then?"

The truth is that me and you are on the same page at times, but seriously could you give a more indepth opinion of the subject as I know you well enough that you are able to be way more descriptive, correct and more indepth with detail than what you just did?

spendi, That's your problem; when you have to read instructions on a jam jar, you've already lost it.

What is the beginning of philosophy?

The preface of the two simple words: "What if...?"

Too true Cicerone. Science is use in art all the time. Math is used in art all the time. Science and Art are not mutually exclusive.

Leisure has a lot to do with it... The first people to practice it were the offspring of slave societies... I think Aristotle says as much in Metaphysics...People living their lives on a flat out run don't have much time to ask why. or how life can be made better...They take for granted the explanations they receive, and give their first fruits to God, who they then thank for their survival and daily bread before doing it all over again until they are....

What C does not see, is that there is no difference between logic and science, or logic and math; which have their place in the physical world, and which we conceive of as a problem, when in fact, we have the technology we need for the physical world if we can manage our affairs in the moral world... Physics has long ceased being a branch of philosophy that has born fruit for humanity, and now offers only more exotic styles of death... It is in morality, and in the answering of moral questions to consensus where philosophy finds its true path...

Wrong, poopy head. Humans use science to get better knowledge of our environment, but how we use that knowledge can become a philosophical one.

I am sure you misspelled poppy head... The first cut is the deepest, and all that...If all you want to do is milk me, try the gentle touch...I have found a six blade knife works well... What do you use???

14-blades; that's size, chum.