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IS THE "TEA PARTY" REALLY A POPULIST MOVEMENT?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:09 am
@plainoldme,
Do you recall the whole bruhaha about the Democrats fleeing Texas to avoid a vote on disticting? Tom Delay was attempting to pack the Texas House delegation. Their intention was to gerrymander the districts, to put all of the rural, conservative Democrats in districts with the urban Republicans. Texas has a long tradition of conservatism, but in rural disticts it has almost always been conservative Democrats.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:11 am
@Setanta,
YEs, I remember that. We are in another post-census year when it is time for the gerrymandering to begin again.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  3  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:24 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

dyslexia wrote:

let's be a little more honest here folks, Obama and the Dems are every bit as much in the pockets of "big money" as are the Repubs.


Oh, I think it's fair to say 'slightly less.' A simple examination of the money streams shows that they flow with far less impedance to Republican causes.

Cycloptichorn
this I guess is where we part ways Cyclo. myth = the dems represent the working class. myth = the repubs represent small business. both parties equally represent big money, from the AFL-CIO to Goldman Sachs are found the owners of our Congress.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 10:49 am
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

dyslexia wrote:

let's be a little more honest here folks, Obama and the Dems are every bit as much in the pockets of "big money" as are the Repubs.


Oh, I think it's fair to say 'slightly less.' A simple examination of the money streams shows that they flow with far less impedance to Republican causes.

Cycloptichorn
this I guess is where we part ways Cyclo. myth = the dems represent the working class. myth = the repubs represent small business. both parties equally represent big money, from the AFL-CIO to Goldman Sachs are found the owners of our Congress.


An examination of the actual streams of money - actual amounts spent on political causes by either unions or so-called Big money - shows that Republicans are recipients of this to a far greater degree.

And you will note that I said 'slightly less.' It isn't as if I don't agree that the Dems are also beholden to business interests, of course they are. But not to the degree that the Republican party is.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:14 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

An examination of the actual streams of money - actual amounts spent on political causes by either unions or so-called Big money - shows that Republicans are recipients of this to a far greater degree.

And you will note that I said 'slightly less.' It isn't as if I don't agree that the Dems are also beholden to business interests, of course they are. But not to the degree that the Republican party is.
Cycloptichorn


A pretty weak response given the categorical nature of the charge.

The thicket of categories and mostly meaningless distinctions among groups making political contributions makes direct comparisons difficult (Union financed "get out the vote" campaigns are a prominent example of contributions never counted). However, the simple fact that the reported campaign funds available to Democrat and Republican party organizations are heavily tilted in favor of the Democrats in the current campaign gives the lie to your assertions.

Perhaps you would like to offer us some proof.
JPB
 
  3  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:17 pm
@plainoldme,
plainoldme wrote:

Besides, anyone who thinks o'donnell actually matriculated at Oxford deserves to have her as Senator.


Any society dumb enough to elect morons and idiots to represent them deserves the government it gets.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:19 pm
@JPB,
I knew this guy that bought a Yugo, a brand new Yugo.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:20 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
A pretty weak response given the categorical nature of the charge.


I didn't make the original charge. Reading skills are important here.

georgeob1 wrote:
Perhaps you would like to offer us some proof.


You should be ******* embarrassed to even ask that question, George. Ashamed inside, given the bullshit you've thrown up around the issue of proof or evidence over the years.

Nevertheless; if you have the temerity to ask again, I will provide exactly that proof, both in respect to past elections and the upcoming one. But be ready for a heaping of scorn to go along with it, because you're really acting the hypocrite at the moment.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  0  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:25 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Despite all the heated rhetoric and intemperate accusations, you forgot to address the issue. Do you really assert that Dewmocrat campaign spending is significantly less than Republican in the current campaign?
djjd62
 
  1  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
The Tea Party is an internet social network based political group


the problem being every internet social network is full of complete assholes



wait, what Confused
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:45 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Despite all the heated rhetoric and intemperate accusations, you forgot to address the issue. Do you really assert that Dewmocrat campaign spending is significantly less than Republican in the current campaign?


Absolutely.

Here's your first clue, George: have you kept in mind the effects of the recent Citizen United decision? The one that allows front companies to be created, to funnel secret donations from corporations and million and billionaires straight into attack ads?

The money that big businesses are spending on Republicans isn't going to the RNC anymore, man. It goes to outside attack groups who are basically unaccountable in the new political climate. Were you accounting for those when you made your oh-so-sure assertion?

Cycloptichorn

georgeob1
 
  -2  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:50 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
On the contrary, I made explicit reference to the many off the books ways of funding campaigns, and the difficulty in getting reliable comparative data. However, it was you, not me, who made the (still unproven) categorical assertion that the Republicans have more money at their disposal.

We are all waiting anxiously for your "proofs".
parados
 
  3  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 12:57 pm
@georgeob1,
Well, there was this just yesterday george..
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/30/democrats-find-many-big-donors-cutting-support/

Quote:
In the last week, Republican-leaning groups outspent their Democratic counterparts on television by more than seven to one on Senate races and nearly four to one on House races across the country, according to data from the Campaign Media Analysis Group, which tracks political advertising.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 01:00 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

On the contrary, I made explicit reference to the many off the books ways of funding campaigns, and the difficulty in getting reliable comparative data. However, it was you, not me, who made the (still unproven) categorical assertion that the Republicans have more money at their disposal.

We are all waiting anxiously for your "proofs".


Here's a good start -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaign/2010/spending/index.html

You can look and see how much has been spent, and what group, by each week of the campaign season so far, for the last several weeks. Even the most casual perusal should convince you that the Republicans have been far outpacing the Democrats in amounts spent - and this chart includes outside interest groups and unions as well.

I am assuming you can figure out how to read it yourself; but in the off chance that you can't, I will crunch the numbers for you.

I would also remind you that you are starting in a huge hole thanks to the idiot Republican candidate for Governor, Meg Whitman, who has already spent more than 120 million dollars on her campaign. This is more than the DCCC and DSCC and every interest group on the left - combined. And you really should have known this before you even began posting on this topic.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Thu 30 Sep, 2010 01:01 pm
@JPB,
IRFRANK wrote:

Hmmm... I thought Gore was a better choice. So did as many people as voted for Bush, maybe more. I honestly think we would have been better off with Gore. Bush II may not have been your choice, but he was your party's choice. I agree, fear had a lot to do with both elections.


Back to this for a sec... the Presidential election of 2000 is the epitome of why I have such disdain for the two party system. You thought Gore was a better choice than Bush, I thought they were both awful - one awful, the other truly awful. Why did we end up with Gore vs Bush to choose from? Why does the primary system produce candidates that only a party loyalist could endorse? Why were two awful candidates put forth so that the swing voters -- those who end up deciding most elections -- were put in the position of choosing between gradients of awful?

2000 had the potential of bringing forth the election of my dreams (Bradley vs McCain) or an election of choice (Bradley or McCain vs Gore or Bush). As it turned out the extremists prevailed in both parties leaving the moderate/independent swing voters to choose between evils -- or, no choice at all. It's no surprise the result was a virtual tie.

That's what was different about 2008. Moderates and independents got behind a candidate who happened to be running in a tight primary race against a party regular. Many voted in Democratic primaries to make the 2008 election an election of choice.

Other than his pandering to the far right to survive the primary process, I still think McCain is a centrist at heart. Although his pandering bothered me, I think he would have had a much closer outcome in the general election if SP had not been his running mate. In fact, I was undecided and sitting on the fence until the day she was announced.

I think the tea party movement -- as flaky as it's become -- began as an expression of real frustration with the two party system and the search for a viable third option.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Mon 4 Oct, 2010 11:23 am
Krugman has an interesting OP today on the origins and success of the tea party.

Quote:
As Politico recently pointed out, every major contender for the 2012 Republican presidential nomination who isn’t currently holding office and isn’t named Mitt Romney is now a paid contributor to Fox News. Now, media moguls have often promoted the careers and campaigns of politicians they believe will serve their interests. But directly cutting checks to political favorites takes it to a whole new level of blatancy.

snip

Something else has changed, too: increasingly, Fox News has gone from merely supporting Republican candidates to anointing them. Christine O’Donnell, the upset winner of the G.O.P. Senate primary in Delaware, is often described as the Tea Party candidate, but given the publicity the network gave her, she could equally well be described as the Fox News candidate. Anyway, there’s not much difference: the Tea Party movement owes much of its rise to enthusiastic Fox coverage.

As the Republican political analyst David Frum put it, “Republicans originally thought that Fox worked for us, and now we are discovering we work for Fox” — literally, in the case of all those non-Mitt-Romney presidential hopefuls. It was days later, by the way, that Mr. Frum was fired by the American Enterprise Institute. Conservatives criticize Fox at their peril.

snip

So think of those paychecks to Sarah Palin and others as smart investments. After all, if you’re a media mogul, it’s always good to have friends in high places. And the most reliable friends are the ones who know they owe it all to you. MORE


Emphasis added. More and more info is coming out about the big business support of the tea party candidates. Populist at its inception, maybe, but certainly no longer.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Mon 4 Oct, 2010 11:48 am
@JPB,
The are certainly a lot of sour grapes about Fox News being so successful. Look, Glenn Beck can put together a rally on the mall, drive the chatter for weeks in large part because he has a podium on Fox, but big labor and their friends try to do the same thing and few show up and it barely catches the interest of America.

I find it amazing however that anyone would register surprise that Fox is trying to drive the chatter and the country right however. This has been clearly a goal since almost the day they went on the air. Now is a little late to be figuring this out.

Fox is more successful than anyone else in the game, and the country is moving right. Is Fox responsible for the changing mood or is the changing mood responsible for fox?? IDK.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Mon 4 Oct, 2010 11:52 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

Fox is more successful than anyone else in the game, and the country is moving right.


Historical evidence clearly counters this assertion. On social issues, the country has been on a gradual and non-stop move left for the last 100 years, and there's little evidence that this is changing.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Mon 4 Oct, 2010 11:53 am
There is no good reason to assume that the country is moving to the right. It is the nature of the history of immigration to the United States which makes the county essentially moderately conservative. That demagogs are able to exploit that is no reason to assume that anything basic has changed.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Mon 4 Oct, 2010 12:14 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
PRINCETON, NJ -- Despite the results of the 2008 presidential election, Americans, by a 2-to-1 margin, say their political views in recent years have become more conservative rather than more liberal, 39% to 18%, with 42% saying they have not changed. While independents and Democrats most often say their views haven't changed, more members of all three major partisan groups indicate that their views have shifted to the right rather than to the left.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/121403/special-report-ideologically-moving.aspx

It is easy to see the movement on immigration, gun control, and size of government issues....on these issues the right is trouncing the left. In the case of gun control the courts have played a bit role, but I hear very little push back from the citizens, even as gun control laws get shredded. It was only a couple of years ago that it appeared that a broad ban on hand guns was with in reach, now 4 states have made gun carry in bars explicitly legal.

Quote:
Tennessee is one of four states, along with Arizona, Georgia and Virginia, that recently enacted laws explicitly allowing loaded guns in bars. (Eighteen other states allow weapons in restaurants that serve alcohol.) The new measures in Tennessee and the three other states come after two landmark Supreme Court rulings that citizens have an individual right — not just in connection with a well-regulated militia — to keep a loaded handgun for home defense.

Experts say these laws represent the latest wave in the country’s gun debate, as the gun lobby seeks, state by state, to expand the realm of guns in everyday life.

The rulings, which overturned handgun bans in Washington and Chicago, have strengthened the stance of gun rights advocates nationwide. More than 250 lawsuits now challenge various gun laws, and Gov. Rick Perry of Texas, a Republican, called for guns to be made legal on campuses after a shooting last week at the University of Texas, Austin, arguing that armed bystanders might have stopped the gunman.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04guns.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

David, our resident gun nut, seems to be more in the mainstream then he is given credit for at a2k.

Edit: we can add abortion to the list. States for decade have been moving to make abortions difficult to impossible to get, and yet where is the outrage??
 

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