19
   

What is hope...is there a difference between hope and faith

 
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2020 05:29 pm
@Jiggy,
Sorry, that was ambiguous. I meant to say that religion is based on ideas about things that aren't physical, e.g. gods, cherubim, etc.
Jiggy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2020 05:44 pm
@InfraBlue,
Thanks for clarifying that.
Actually the statement is still not accurate, since religion is not based on ideas, any more than science beliefs are based on ideas.
I think it's more accurate to say, religion deals with non-physical stuff, while science deals with physical stuff.
However, both can be said to have ideas that are non-physical, and both look at physical evidence.
I don't see any other difference. Do you?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2020 06:44 pm
@Jiggy,
The difference is precisely that the stuff that isn’t physical that religion deals with exists in the mind, not in the physical world.

The physical evidence of the stuff that religion deals with, that by definition isn’t physical, is subjective.
Jiggy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2020 09:56 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
The difference is precisely that the stuff that isn’t physical that religion deals with exists in the mind, not in the physical world.

That's a very bold statement. Please prove it. I'll be listening. Neutral

Quote:
The physical evidence of the stuff that religion deals with, that by definition isn’t physical, is subjective.

A lot of things exists in the mind - perhaps 80%, because without the mind, none of us would know or understand much of anything, and we might not be alive.
Take for example, pain... Without the mind, you would not know of internal problems, and go see a doctor. You might not eat, at times, because you are not conscious of being hungry, etc.
Pleasure, pain, fulfillment or satisfaction... all of these exists in the mind.
How do you know you are full, or your thirst is quenched?
The feeling for justice, love etc.
All subjective?
What test do you need to perform to tell you that you need to go to the bathroom? Subjective?

The claim that religion is entirely subjective and science is not, is a myth.
We use our mind to figure out, and understand things.
The evaluating of evidence is only subjective, when your are relying on your own personal feelings.
Anyone can be guilty of this - including biased scientists, Atheists or religionist.

The evidence does not change based on the one doing the evaluation.
However, one can assume that their methods leads to objectivity. That's a subjective opinion.
There are archaeologists, biologist, chemists, philosophers, religionists, theologians... who examine evidence, and interpret that evidence.

Are interpretations subjective, or objective?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Dec, 2020 11:42 pm
@Jiggy,
There’s nowhere else for non-physical things to exist in terms of the physical world.

Feelings are by definition subjective, i.e. dependent on or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world.

The difference, again, between science and religion is that the former deals with physical stuff, i.e. objective things, where the latter deals with non-physical things, that are objective as ideas communicable to others.

Interpretations are subjective, the things that are interpretable can be either objective or subjective, however.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 03:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
The Aztecs believed the Sun rose was because they kept a steady stream of blood flowing down the side of their pyramids.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 04:26 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:


The Aztecs believed the Sun rose was because they kept a steady stream of blood flowing down the side of their pyramids.


And it worked.

Perhaps that is why some people "pray" so much these days. I suppose they pray that if enough people "pray" for peace and love amongst the people, maybe their gods will grant it to the world.

BUT...almost everyone on the planet has been praying for peace and love amongst the people throughout the millennia...yet...

...damn near none of either in sight.

Maybe the Aztecs were on to something. If the blood running down their pyramids worked so well with "getting the sun to rise" each morning...

...perhaps it would work with gaining world peace and universal love among people.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 05:25 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Leadfoot wrote:
And contrary to assertions otherwise, 'spiritual ideas' are just as testable as Einstein's.

IB replied:
How are spiritual ideas testable in the way Einstein's are testable?

Jiggy has a point about my choice of the word 'idea'. A More accurate term for what I meant would be 'concept'. An idea can be as simple as ‘I’d like to do that hot girl over there', but a concept has to fit some logical framework.

The same is true of any valid spiritual concept. 'I hope God is real' is an idea, not a concept. On the other hand, 'I don’t see a way for biological life to happen by any known natural forces, so there must be 'super natural' (beyond physics) forces at work and if they exist, they appear to possess intelligence' , is a concept that can be tested.

One way to test this concept is to demonstrate how life can happen by known causes. Even with our amazing Science, That test has failed so far. That seems enough reason to consider other concepts such as ID or even religion. Since this is a field which has no recognized experts, we are all equally qualified to do that research.

My own 'test' was to postulate that if there was an intelligent creator who was concerned with his/her/it’s sentient creation, there would be some clue as to its existence and some form of communication should be possible. I had positive results, but apparently everyone has to find their own test, or even decide if it is worth the effort.

Of course this begs a thousand other questions/tests which each must find the answer to. It's the job of a lifetime.





0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 05:53 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
An ET origin of life precludes Evolution theory?

It doesn’t preclude it, it merely kicks Evolution's problems to another planet, it does not solve them.

I was using 'ET origin of life' in the same sense as farmer uses it. Technically, it could be referring to a creator God, but that’s not he uses the concept.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 06:09 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
The multiverse theory attempts to do the same as the ET origin of life in regard to Evolution theory?

Yes. Our understanding of molecular biology is approaching the point where abiogenesis is getting too hard to rationalize. We can’t make the math work, there was not enough time even in the 13.78 billion years of the known universe for life by chance to happen. Hence - There must be more of them! Easy-peasy solution to problem!

The cosmologists bear equal 'credit' here, they used it to explain the fine tuning of the universe. Well, they said, it only appears to be fine tuned, but if there are an infinite number of universes, one of them had to be like this one. No evidence, but they figure they must exist.

I mean, how pathetic can you get.
nacredambition
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 07:18 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I mean, how pathetic can you get.


God knows.
Jiggy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 09:16 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
There’s nowhere else for non-physical things to exist in terms of the physical world.

??? Can you translate that, or put that another way please? Respect... but that statement isn't making sense to me. Could you please rephrase.

Quote:
Feelings are by definition subjective, i.e. dependent on or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world.

When I go to the bathroom, it's not because of what's taking place in my mind - i.e. imagination, No. The brain receives the signal, yes, but it's due to physical activity. The feelings I get are evidence of something real.
Is this not the case with you, or do you have a different experience?


Quote:
The difference, again, between science and religion is that the former deals with physical stuff, i.e. objective things, where the latter deals with non-physical things, that are objective as ideas communicable to others.

Objective things? ???
InfraBlue, physical things are not objective things. Are you certain about what you are saying here?
Or perhaps you are not saying things the way you mean them.
I don't understand what your last phrase translates to.... "that are objective as ideas communicable to others". What do you mean by that?

Quote:
Interpretations are subjective, the things that are interpretable can be either objective or subjective, however.

The things that are interpreted can either be subjective or objective?
What is an objective thing? Please give an example that I cam understand what you are saying... or trying to say.
Can you give a simple example of how an "objective thing" can be interpreted as a "subjective thing", please?

If I may assume, perhaps what you really mean to say is that science uses an objective approach.
If my assumption (guess) is correct (you tell me), then...
There is continual debate that objectivity is for the most part, subjective... which I agree with.

Objective approach
Quote:
If relevant valid evidence is denied, an objective approach is impossible.

If rival interpretations are denied or if evidence is denied, then this impairs the possibility for rational debate and criticism, and consequently the growth of knowledge. On that ground, many scientists have proclaimed themselves in favour of freedom of thought and expression. If evidence is falsified as for example in conducting a control experiment knowledge is gained leading to the progress of an objective argument as the falsification resembles proof.

Sometimes it is argued that an objective approach is impossible because people will naturally take a partisan, self-interested approach. That is, they will select out those views and facts which agree with their own (cf. confirmation bias).


Critiques of scientific objectivity
Quote:

A critical argument on scientific objectivity and positivism is that all science has a degree of interpretivism.


However, to get into the whole debate about objectivity vs subjectivity, will take us on a very long debate, further and further away from what we both were hoping to discuss.
A book of pages that can reach the moon, can probably be written about the subjectivity of the methods of science.

Considering though, that there are some things science cannot explore, due to its limitations, should we restrict our knowledge by rejecting evidence?
Say for example, some phenomenon occurred that cannot be explained by any natural means - a miracle, if you will. Science does not have the answer, but religion does. Should we decide to deny that evidence, because scientists cannot interpret it to fit their naturalistic worldview?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 09:44 am
@nacredambition,
Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
I mean, how pathetic can you get.

NA sez:
God knows.

I’m sure he does, but my point is, you should be able see it too.
Or at least do better than throwing up your hands and surrendering to such pathetic 'reasoning'.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 11:05 am
@Leadfoot,
I think an ID rationalization is easier-peasier, for that matter.

Chance is an assumption that's taken by IDers. It's possible that life was around since the earliest times of the universe along with the other forces of nature. Chance isn't necessary as part of an explanation for evolution, or life for that matter.

Pathetic is subjective.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 11:41 am
@Jiggy,
Jiggy wrote:


Considering though, that there are some things science cannot explore, due to its limitations, should we restrict our knowledge by rejecting evidence?
Say for example, some phenomenon occurred that cannot be explained by any natural means - a miracle, if you will. Science does not have the answer, but religion does. Should we decide to deny that evidence, because scientists cannot interpret it to fit their naturalistic worldview?


Hummm!

So you are suggesting that when we come upon matters that "science" cannot explain....it makes more sense to call them acts of a GOD...

...than to simply say, "We do not know the answer to that question yet...and may never know?"

That doesn't make any sense to me, Jiggy.

If you could, perhaps you could explain your reasoning.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 12:19 pm
@Jiggy,
Jiggy wrote:

Quote:
There’s nowhere else for non-physical things to exist in terms of the physical world.

??? Can you translate that, or put that another way please? Respect... but that statement isn't making sense to me. Could you please rephrase.

I'll pose it as a question. Where does non-physical stuff exist in the physical world, if not in the mind?

Jiggy wrote:

InfrBlue wrote:
Feelings are by definition subjective, i.e. dependent on or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world.

When I go to the bathroom, it's not because of what's taking place in my mind - i.e. imagination, No. The brain receives the signal, yes, but it's due to physical activity. The feelings I get are evidence of something real.
Is this not the case with you, or do you have a different experience?

Sure, we have a certain amount of control over our bodies, but you're conflating that with feelings, i.e. emotions. The feeling, i.e. sensation, of a bowel movement is something decidedly different. I was addressing the first definition of the word "feelings."

Jiggy wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
The difference, again, between science and religion is that the former deals with physical stuff, i.e. objective things, where the latter deals with non-physical things, that are objective as ideas communicable to others.

Objective things? ???
InfraBlue, physical things are not objective things. Are you certain about what you are saying here?
Or perhaps you are not saying things the way you mean them.

Physical things are objective, i.e. existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.
Jiggy wrote:
I don't understand what your last phrase translates to.... "that are objective as ideas communicable to others". What do you mean by that?

Non-physical things exist in the mind. Ideas are produced in the mind and are communicable to others such as through speech, writing, etc. These communications are objective things.

Jiggy wrote:

Quote:
Interpretations are subjective, the things that are interpretable can be either objective or subjective, however.

The things that are interpreted can either be subjective or objective?
What is an objective thing? Please give an example that I cam understand what you are saying... or trying to say.

An apple is an objective thing. It exists independent of or external to the mind.

Jiggy wrote:
Can you give a simple example of how an "objective thing" can be interpreted as a "subjective thing", please?

I didn't say that an objective thing can be interpreted as subjective. I said that interpretations, i.e. dependent on or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world, are subjective.

Jiggy wrote:

If I may assume, perhaps what you really mean to say is that science uses an objective approach.
If my assumption (guess) is correct (you tell me), then...
There is continual debate that objectivity is for the most part, subjective... which I agree with.

Objective approach
Quote:
If relevant valid evidence is denied, an objective approach is impossible.

If rival interpretations are denied or if evidence is denied, then this impairs the possibility for rational debate and criticism, and consequently the growth of knowledge. On that ground, many scientists have proclaimed themselves in favour of freedom of thought and expression. If evidence is falsified as for example in conducting a control experiment knowledge is gained leading to the progress of an objective argument as the falsification resembles proof.

Sometimes it is argued that an objective approach is impossible because people will naturally take a partisan, self-interested approach. That is, they will select out those views and facts which agree with their own (cf. confirmation bias).


Critiques of scientific objectivity
Quote:

A critical argument on scientific objectivity and positivism is that all science has a degree of interpretivism.

In that sense, "objective" means uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. That is not the definition I was using.

Jiggy wrote:
However, to get into the whole debate about objectivity vs subjectivity, will take us on a very long debate, further and further away from what we both were hoping to discuss.
A book of pages that can reach the moon, can probably be written about the subjectivity of the methods of science.

It helps to define one's terms.

Jiggy wrote:
Considering though, that there are some things science cannot explore, due to its limitations, should we restrict our knowledge by rejecting evidence?
Say for example, some phenomenon occurred that cannot be explained by any natural means - a miracle, if you will. Science does not have the answer, but religion does. Should we decide to deny that evidence, because scientists cannot interpret it to fit their naturalistic worldview?

How is a non-physical phenomenon observed and measured by physical means?

How is it relevant to an examination of physical stuff?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 04:25 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
I think an ID rationalization is easier-peasier, for that matter.
In that case I’d love to have you critique my 'simplest' ID argument I’ve posted several times. But I’d be happy to post it again if you haven’t seen it.
Farmer couldn’t get past handedness in amino acids.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 05:18 pm
@Leadfoot,
You left off the rest of my answer.

Quote:
Chance is an assumption that's taken by IDers. It's possible that life was around since the earliest times of the universe along with the other forces of nature. Chance isn't necessary as part of an explanation for evolution, or life for that matter.

Pathetic is subjective.


"Accident" is another assumption made by IDers.

I also answered your post in that other thread.

InfraBlue wrote:

Ledfoot wrote:
But for now let's ignore the mathematical improbability of that first protein and the hundreds of others needed.

Your ID is just as improbable.

So, you'd rather place your bet on your ID. Understood.

Ledfoot wrote:

You have probably noticed that I have not mentioned DNA yet. It is the nature of what DNA is that makes accidental life virtually impossible.

Your argument of "accidental life" is a straw man argument seeing as no one you're arguing against here is arguing that life is accidental.

Your ID is just as virtually impossible, however much you'd prefer to place your bet on it.
Jiggy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 09:51 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Hmmm. Let's look at that again...
Jiggy wrote:
Considering though, that there are some things science cannot explore, due to its limitations, should we restrict our knowledge by rejecting evidence?
Say for example, some phenomenon occurred that cannot be explained by any natural means - a miracle, if you will. Science does not have the answer, but religion does. Should we decide to deny that evidence, because scientists cannot interpret it to fit their naturalistic worldview?


Frank wrote:
So you are suggesting that when we come upon matters that "science" cannot explain....it makes more sense to call them acts of a GOD...

...than to simply say, "We do not know the answer to that question yet...and may never know?"


Wow. Those quotes look so completely opposite... like sunrise and sunset; North pole and South pole.
No wonder it makes no sense Frank. You created it, and I don't know why.
I know that it is a usual strawman Atheists create, which they term "god-of-the-gaps".

I said... "religion has the answer". Not, "religion creates an answer, or finds an answer". Has - past tense.

Age of science : The earliest roots of science can be traced to Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia in around 3500 to 3000 BCE.
The scientific method soon played a greater role in knowledge creation and it was not until the 19th century that many of the institutional and professional features of science began to take shape; along with the changing of "natural philosophy" to "natural science."

Age of religion : Religion has been a factor of the human experience throughout history, from pre-historic to modern times. The bulk of the human religious experience pre-dates written history. Written history (the age of formal writing) is only c. 5000 years old.

So look again at what I said.
There is nothing such as, Since science does not have the answer for U(nknown), then G(od).
Rather, it has always been the answer for U, is G. When science comes upon U, and fail to explain it with N(aturalism), R(eligion) does not have that problem, because they understand G.

In other words, there is no God-of-the-gaps
There is rather naturalism... particularly during the so-called "age of Enlightenment", during the late 18th century, which declares... "God tells us nothing. Nature alone does."

Sadly, because of their commitment to "not let a divine foot in the door", they deny the evidence that G has the answers.
https://www.azquotes.com/public/picture_quotes/89/56/895685718fdc027a8b6184849b7e0d82/richard-lewontin-733892.jpg

For example ...
The Bible - ancient writings - contains statements of scientific truth, only recently discovered, by modern science.
1) When there were various inaccurate ideas about the earth, the Bible got it right - Job 26:7.
2) Recent discoveries in hygiene and medicine were already written in the ancient texts. Deuteronomy 23:13; Numbers 19:11, 19; Leviticus 12:3
I've read about what others say about circumcision, but haven't actually thoroughly researched it.
How circumcision shows God exists

There is a lot more the Bible says, which science did not know, until modern times - no earlier than the 17th century. Then there is a lot more the Bible says, which science will never know.
So, while it is expected that skeptics will be saying "We do not know...", perhaps taking that to the grave, I'm saying, why would religious people need to suppress their knowledge, just because of a naturalistic worldview.
They are not limited to that view. They go where the evidence leads them... regardless of the skeptics objections.

An Atheist, for about 50 years said this, after considering that the evidence before him strongly supports the existence of God.
“My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato’s Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew
Quote:
For much of his career Flew was known as a strong advocate of atheism, arguing that one should presuppose atheism until empirical evidence of a God surfaces. He also criticised the idea of life after death, the free will defence to the problem of evil, and the meaningfulness of the concept of God. In 2003 he was one of the signatories of the Humanist Manifesto III.

However, in 2004 he changed his position, and stated that he now believed in the existence of an Intelligent Creator of the universe, shocking colleagues and fellow atheists. In order to further clarify his personal concept of God, Flew openly made an allegiance to Deism, more specifically a belief in the Aristotelian God, and dismissed on many occasions a hypothetical conversion to Christianity, Islam or any other religion. He stated that in keeping his lifelong commitment to go where the evidence leads, he now believed in the existence of a God.
Jiggy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2020 09:54 pm
@InfraBlue,
One word - Dark Matter.
Two questions - Is Dark Matter a non-physical thing? Can it be observed and measured by physical means?
 

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