What is hope...is there a difference between hope and faith

@Leadfoot,

I never said everyone was coerced, but some are, in which case it can’t be voluntary.

@izzythepush,

Can you give an example?

@Leadfoot,

Yes, there were some evangelicals from some awful church in Ohio giving out pamphlets in town on Saturday.

Those pamphlets said that you were going to Hell and the only way to avoid it was to say a particular prayer that was printed on the pamphlet and to go to their church.

Anyone who goes to that church under those circumstances isn’t doing it voluntarily.

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@Leadfoot,

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Would it help if f I made it 'God' instead of God?

No.

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I was using it in the general sense of 'Seeking understanding of God' , just as 'Golf' refers to the activity of hitting balls into small holes in the ground.

Now, that helps. Because now you're describing an activity — seeking.

What about believing — is that a voluntary activity? I would tend to think not.

Echoing what izzythepush says, there can be a certain amount of individual and social coercion among some communities. I don't think it's correct to say that practicing religion is voluntary in each and every case. (Nor is it always a matter of being coerced.)

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@izzythepush,

Sounds like the church my sister in Ohio recently liberated herself from. They had her convinced that cutting her hair or her husband wearing short pants was enough to send them to hell. Concerning ‘coercion', that poor bastard husband of hers was definitely coerced.

But again, you and hightor are conflating going to church with seeking understanding of God. I do not. Seeking God in its essence is a solitary activity that takes place in ones own heart/mind/soul. You can be forced to say or confess anything, but only you decide what to think and believe.

Even the Christian's Jesus gave the same advice. Don’t seek him in church, go alone into your closet to seek God.

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@Leadfoot,

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Seeking God in its essence is a solitary activity that takes place in ones own mind. You can be forced to say or confess anything, but only you decide what to think and believe.

And now we come full circle because I am in agreement with you here. The best verse of the christian bible — Matthew 6:6. I think the communal aspect of religion, while understandable, has lead to the worst manifestations of religious belief.

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@hightor,

Jesus thought so too. Said they had turned church into a den of thieves.
And taking money was the least of their crimes.

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@Leadfoot,

No we’re not, Hightor talked about going to church, not seeking an understanding of God. That is something you brought up, and it’s only you that’s been talking about it.

I’ve just been talking about going to church.

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@izzythepush,

No problem then, don’t go. Whoever tried to coerce you wasn’t God.

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@Leadfoot,

You claimed going to church was a voluntary activity, I’ve given examples of why it’s not.

It’s not about me and what I do on Sundays.

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@Jiggy,

Jiggy wrote:

Are you saying you cannot give me the definition because you are speaking purely from emotion and not fact?
What you are describing is not the religious view of faith. It's not a guess. No.

Of course it is NOT "the religious view of faith."

Religious people want to suppose their "faith" in their "beliefs"...

...which in actuality is their stone-headed insistence that their blind guesses are correct"...

...is a virtue.

Well...I'm here to inform you that you are wrong.

I understand you most likely will not be willing to see it, but that is something you will have to work out.

Interesting that you have tricked yourself into thinking that your assertion "There is a GOD" is not a blind guess.

What is it then?

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@Jiggy,

Jiggy wrote:

Truth is not relative to you Frank. Because you consider it truth does not make it truth.
Aren't you interested in rational reasonable response?
At least we can agree on something - There is NO unambiguous evidence in either direction. Whether science, philosophy, religion, all things are subject to different interpretation... unless it is clearly and directly observable.
I agree with that.

Then with no unambiguous evidence...what else is there?

If all of the evidence is totally ambiguous...

...what else is there but a guess?

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@Frank Apisa,

Normally guesses are dependent on intuitions...how often do you see actual blind guesses in real life? No one likes to blind guess unless they are totally at a loss on what to do!

An analysis on your discourse about blind guessing leads me to conclude you have an agenda on scepticism for the sake of argument but you still get up every morning doing stuff...if you had to go through your life blind guessing any and everything you would probably had quit living long time ago, which in turn makes your entire discourse on blind guessing an act of hypocrisy or worse self delusion on your own nature, and sense of self importance by disdaining on other people behaviour when you yourself can't comit to what you claim to believe in.

You think you are wise and beat the system by making a trivial assertion about blind guessing when it comes to absolute truths but your domain of behaviour is not programmed to address absolute truths but rather live on your meat ball monkey brain. In that regard you are actually denying the phenomenology and ethics by which you should live your life in your little corner of Reality which is bound to a specific perceptual boundary.

I have no further comments, have a nice day Frank!

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@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

Normally guesses are dependent on intuitions...how often do you see actual blind guesses in real life? No one likes to blind guess unless they are totally at a loss on what to do!

Any guess about whether there are gods or not...

...is a blind guess, Al.

If you think otherwise...tell us why you do.

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An analysis on your discourse about blind guessing leads me to conclude you have an agenda on scepticism for the sake of argument but you still get up every morning doing stuff...if you had to go through your life blind guessing any and everything you would probably had quit living long time ago, which in turn makes your entire discourse on blind guessing an act of hypocrisy or worse self delusion on your own nature, and sense of self importance by disdaining on other people behaviour when you yourself can't comit to what you claim to believe in.

Sounds as though you've got a bug up your ass.

In any case, give me a single example of anything I "claim to believe." During my two and a half decades of posting on the Internet, I have only used "I believe" only one time...and acknowledged it as being a sort of joke.

So...give me one example of me "claiming" "I believe..." anything. Take it from here in A2K, any postings you saved from Abuzz, or from any other forum in which I have participated. (Don't waste a lot of time. You won't find even one!)

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You think you are wise and beat the system by making a trivial assertion about blind guessing when it comes to absolute truths but your domain of behaviour is not programmed to address absolute truths but rather live on your meat ball monkey brain.

Ooooohhhh! "Meatball monkey brain." The other kids must think you are brilliant for coming up with such a zinger. (By the way, meatball is one word, not two.)

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In that regard you are actually denying the phenomenology and ethics by which you should live your life in your little corner of Reality which is bound to a specific perceptual boundary.

Ah, my. That sounds so erudite. To some, anyway. To me it sounded like bullshit.

What happened? Run out of juice?

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I have no further comments, have a nice day Frank!

I always have a nice day, Al. I hope you do also.

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@Frank Apisa,

Do you believe you are alive Frank?
Do you believe you have money in the bank Frank?
Do you believe you are aware and woken up Frank? Are you dreaming right now or writing on a forum? Your pseudo scepticism is beyond pathetic!
You know what Frank you are full of crap and ignorant about yourself I just debunked you broken record year long bullshit on this Forum!
People 99% of the time don't do blind guesses neither do you. People can do misinformed guessing or less misinformed guessing but people do have reasons to "guess" at anything when they lack certainty. You conflate the regular use of the word guess with opinion formed on subjective experience.

PS - I don't give a shizz on how meatball is written I took 1 minute to post down that counter and floored you!

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@Frank Apisa,

You are so stupid and so dumb that if you took seriously your scepticism you would freeze and stop moving or speaking altogether as you would be sceptic of your own scepticism...
I guess that is a to big double spin-off for your brain to compute it must be Alzheimer catching up!

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@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

Do you believe you are alive Frank?

No. I do not do "believing." I KNOW I am alive...or that I am experiencing the illusions of being alive.

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Do you believe you have money in the bank Frank?

No. I KNOW I have money in the bank. (Not a lot.)

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Do you believe you are aware and woken up Frank?

No. I KNOW I am aware and awake...or that I am experiencing the illusion of being aware and awake..

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Are you dreaming right now or writing on a forum?

At the moment I am typing on my keyboard. Whether the keyboard and everything else around me is real...or, as Einstein put it, a very persistent illusion...I do not know.

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Your pseudo scepticism is beyond pathetic!

I am not interested in your opinion of me, Al. I am interested in what you wrote about me.

You wrote, "...when you yourself can't comit to what you claim to believe in."

I merely asked you to cite ANYTHING I have ever claimed to "believe in."

You cannot, so you are now raving and raging...and attempting to divert.

Hey, no problem. You just ran out of steam.

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You know what Frank you are full of crap and ignorant about yourself I just debunked you broken record year long bullshit on this Forum!

I am not ignorant...and you have not debunked anything I have said.

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People 99% of the time don't do blind guesses neither do you. People can do misinformed guessing or less misinformed guessing but people do have reasons to "guess" at anything when they lack certainty. You conflate the regular use of the word guess with opinion formed on subjective experience.

Anyone asserting "There is a GOD" or "There are no gods"...is merely sharing a BLIND GUESS.

Deal with that. Forget about trying to divert. It is not going to work.

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PS - I don't give a shizz on how meatball is written I took 1 minute to post down that counter and floored you!

You did not floor me...you cannot. I am correct in what I have said.

I hope the day improves for you, Al. You do seem out of sorts.

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@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

You are so stupid and so dumb that if you took seriously your scepticism you would freeze and stop moving or speaking altogether as you would be sceptic of your own scepticism...
I guess that is a to big double spin-off for your brain to compute it must be Alzheimer catching up!

I am neither stupid nor dumb, Al.

Sorry you are so out of sorts that you have to turn to that kind of ****.

Try to get a grip.

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@Frank Apisa,

If you aren't just shush! Later old man!

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@Albuquerque,

Albuquerque wrote:

If you aren't just shush! Later old man!

Okay, Al. Hope things improve for you today.

Not sure when you got into just name calling...but you really ought to shed yourself of it. It becomes a habit quickly.

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What is hope...is there a difference between hope and faith

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