25
   

Critical thinking and political matters.

 
 
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 12:01 pm
@Fido,
But without ideals are we not doomed to repeat the cycle?

I would not agree that it is a failure measured against its own goals. In 200 years we have made progress toward freedom for all men, and women. Just working is not good enough. Being marginally better than the status quo is not acceptable if it means giving up some basic, real, value over the long term.

I would argue that many of our current feelings of failure, at least in America, are economic. And that that is caused by a lot of influences that are not a result of our social or political situation. The world is changing at a rapid pace and our place in it has changed. Our ability to react to that is affected by our political system, but is not caused by it. The zealotry of the right is the biggest voice keeping solutions from coming forward.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water would only put us much further into the dark ages and behind the rest of the world.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 01:29 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
I don't know what Mr. Greenspan saw, but I am fairly certain of what he said...

Memory is an odd thing. People often convince themselves they saw and heard something when in reality they never did. That's why it's good to check your facts, which you seem to not want to do.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:28 pm
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

Or rather; I know what they must know to change the world to one more to their liking...


This is a dangerous thought in and of itself. How can one, or even a group, change the world more to their liking? The world is what it is, we must change ourselves and how we react to the world to reap better results.

The farmer gets better crops by fertilizing in the spring and getting rain than bitching about the horse pulling the wagon to market in the fall.

Blame is plentiful and unrewarding.
It is not just them, but us... We can all change the world more to our liking... As soon as I became conscious of the forms I was in, and that they were all forms of relationship I never felt trapped in them again... I don't like the way the U.S. as a form works, but just understanding it makes me feel that much closer to freedom.. Slavery was a form of relationship too, and slaves accepted it because the alternative was death, and they made the choice,,,People accept unequal forms all the time, like our economy; but it beats death; which I know is not much of a recommendation, but some people deprived of their place in the economy actually kill or commit suicide or both, and it is because they have nothing but the form for identification... They cannot see the form abstractly, as just another form out of many... People with formal consciousness have an edge in this world, and they know where to tweak to get the best milage from it...And they know when to give up hope and start over...

And yes, it is kind of dangerous to some, but you have to understand that failing forms don't lead to happiness anywhere... Some people take their security and comfort out of others, but it does not lead to any true happiness... Only a monster could be called happy while others around are miserable or in pain.. The worst thing is that failing forms divide people who survive by their unity... The Greeks divided their wealth between them, then their political power, and together lost all... The Romans learned nothing and did the same, and in every society where the wealthy gain all they as soon lose it to revolution or invasion... We are being invaded every single day... Most are coming in with an invitation because it helps the wealthy get wealthier while the poor get poorer... But as poverty grows so grows volatility....
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

IRF, Well stated; Fido thinks governments works, but history tells us it doesn't. Any improvement comes only from the self; not from any external source. We have seen what we consider both good and bad governments, and even good governments fail to be "good" all the time for the citizens.

A good example is the war GW Bush got us involved in Iraq. That was an unnecessary war that ended up wasting our resources, and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis.

Intent is no panacea for reality. All humans make mistakes, and so do governments.

I don't think government works...I think government is supposed to work... No one builds a form as ours was built, to fail... But in building it they gave one class a slight edge which was built upon later...When the form was turned to the benefit of one class instead of all the people it was doomed... Good should come out of every form, and that is the test, because people invest their lives into forms and must get life back out of them, and our government is taking too much life for the life it gives....

Considering that we have fought one civil war for the failings of our form it could have long ago been called a failure... For the fact that it cannot be corrected it could be called a failure... For the fact that the promise of freedom it made to the world for which it has given little freedom and made many enemies it is a failure... Only in surviving as long as it has could it be called a success, but its very survival threatens our existence... We have to kill it before it kills us...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:37 pm
@IRFRANK,
IRF, I agree the discontent in the US is now primarily based on economics; most people just want jobs, to keep their homes, and provide for their families.

What will happen in the next election will result from a confused electorate who do not have good memories or ability at simple analysis of current events.

The majority who voted for Obama have changed their tunes, because of all the negative hipe, but the facts are that Obama has realized the majority of what he has promised during his campaign. A FactCheck proves this point.

Americans are totally confused; they don't have any idea of what they want or hope to accomplish as Americans. Most political pundits say that the republicans will win more seats in November.

My only question is why?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:40 pm
@IRFRANK,
IRFRANK wrote:

But without ideals are we not doomed to repeat the cycle?

I would not agree that it is a failure measured against its own goals. In 200 years we have made progress toward freedom for all men, and women. Just working is not good enough. Being marginally better than the status quo is not acceptable if it means giving up some basic, real, value over the long term.

I would argue that many of our current feelings of failure, at least in America, are economic. And that that is caused by a lot of influences that are not a result of our social or political situation. The world is changing at a rapid pace and our place in it has changed. Our ability to react to that is affected by our political system, but is not caused by it. The zealotry of the right is the biggest voice keeping solutions from coming forward.

Throwing the baby out with the bath water would only put us much further into the dark ages and behind the rest of the world.

Ideals are just moral forms... Idealized social forms are the enemy... People are real and not ideal... The forms they build for themselves they will accept and work with... No matter how formal is the relationship, and idealized, usually there is a level of informality that keeps everything working... The economy does not work, and it is supposed to be ideal, that is, perfect...The underground economy is working at least enough to make the ideal economy seem like a success... People are what they are, never perfect, so ideals are only a form of tyranny... Better something real and imperfect that works than a perfect anything that puts all of humanity up against a wall...
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:48 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
I don't know what Mr. Greenspan saw, but I am fairly certain of what he said...

Memory is an odd thing. People often convince themselves they saw and heard something when in reality they never did. That's why it's good to check your facts, which you seem to not want to do.

There is a reason I own books, and it is to check the facts, and I do remember what I read many times better than what I hear, so reading accounts for the bulk of my education... The only reason I remember Greenspan at all on that occasion, is the feeling of amazement at hearing some one admit it, and I think it was on the same occasion, or testifying to another part of government about his free market principals of, I think 40 years, turning out to be wrong... I am just telling you what I heard... I don't want to over extimate how little I care what he said... I will fact check a book if I have no given it away; but only dead people live in the past and I am not going there without a good reason... If you give a turd, go find it for your self, and tell me how wrong I am...And then see if I care about that either...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 03:48 pm
@Fido,
You say those things without understanding human nature. All one needs to do is look at our current economy; the rich has been getting richer while the middle class and poor has become poorer.

Some good people are some of the wealthiest on this planet, but most who command million dollar salaries and benefits at the expense of the workers getting less does not prove good intentions. Many have made decisions to lay off American workers to export those jobs to other countries, while their own salaries and benefits increased. Can you see what's wrong with this picture?

American workers is the engine that makes our economy strong. Without them, our country will deteriorate into third world status. American workers help other Americans keep their jobs and homes. More taxes are collected by all levels of government to support all the necessary maintenance of our infrastructure and services. What's been happening during the past two decades is that most local, state, and the federal governments going into deeper debt is caused by this greed by the few at the top.

This needs to be reversed if we want to see any recovery. The feds can jump start this growth by spending more on infrastructure maintenance and development. Those monies will multiply within our economy to grow our economy.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 05:43 pm
@Fido,
Since Greenspan testified at least twice a year to Congress for many years, I am not about to look through 10 years of testimony. The problem Fido is that you made a claim that Greenspan stated something that wasn't a fact and Greenspan would have not been wrong about in testimony. Such an error would have made news since every word he says is scrutinized and fact checked by many in the financial industry.
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2010 11:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think that its because a majority of citizens are like Okie and Icon. They only believe what the Glen becks and his ilk tell them because they are too lazy or too stupid to do their own research.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 01:33 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

Since Greenspan testified at least twice a year to Congress for many years, I am not about to look through 10 years of testimony. The problem Fido is that you made a claim that Greenspan stated something that wasn't a fact and Greenspan would have not been wrong about in testimony. Such an error would have made news since every word he says is scrutinized and fact checked by many in the financial industry.

First of all I don't care.... Next, he did not have the job when he testified, but was testifying about former behavior, and like many of those people, he showed that he let his principals/ideals do his thinking... That is: He thought he had found a model of how the economy worked, and instead of seeing the flaws in it, he held to it all the more tightly in the face of itsobvious falilure to predict behavior... The lesson being that we all use forms/ideas to think, but should not use them to think for us as so many do... So look for testimony after the fall, after he was out of the job, just before or after the last election... If you have some reason to care more than me...
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 01:59 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You say those things without understanding human nature. All one needs to do is look at our current economy; the rich has been getting richer while the middle class and poor has become poorer.

Some good people are some of the wealthiest on this planet, but most who command million dollar salaries and benefits at the expense of the workers getting less does not prove good intentions. Many have made decisions to lay off American workers to export those jobs to other countries, while their own salaries and benefits increased. Can you see what's wrong with this picture?

American workers is the engine that makes our economy strong. Without them, our country will deteriorate into third world status. American workers help other Americans keep their jobs and homes. More taxes are collected by all levels of government to support all the necessary maintenance of our infrastructure and services. What's been happening during the past two decades is that most local, state, and the federal governments going into deeper debt is caused by this greed by the few at the top.

This needs to be reversed if we want to see any recovery. The feds can jump start this growth by spending more on infrastructure maintenance and development. Those monies will multiply within our economy to grow our economy.

I never made a claim of understanding human nature... What ever human nature is is not rational, or rationally motivated... The moral forms which guide us are not rationally understandable, for example... Culture, which is knowledge also contains all the irrationalities accumulated by a people in their process of survival, and modern culture in not working creates a sort of person on the edge of self destruction, and frustration... Because people cannot change their form, their natures, and need the stuff of life, for that reason they change their social forms, and physical forms as well, like cloathing and shelter and food production... People who are flawed by nature, having a flawed understanding through their moral forms cannot but create flawed social forms, and you use the example of the federal reserve, or the economy...

If you look about for the causes of our problems you can find many from the flaws in humanity to the flaws in our social forms, which given the tendency of people to benefit at the expense of others are all on a clock and as mortal as their creators...There are no ideal social forms, but they would last a lot longer if people were willing to really fix them as they go rather than forever turning them to their benefit or the benefit of their class... That part of the problem is human nature... The part of the problem that is formal is illustrated by the English Constitution where nobility, king, and church all leaned on each other and all supported each other... All our established social forms do the same thing... Church, economy, military, law specifically and government in general, and education all stand together and support each other... And they will stand until something puts them over the edge... Bankruptcy always leads to revolution and we are bankrupt... The banks have cleaned us out... Our trade policy and employment policy has cleaned us out... We have done as Henry the 7th in England would never have done: We have made war for no good cause or likely gain, and we have exported our capital while importing our products... So we are bankrupt , and the rich, many of whom have been made rich by tax policy alone will not ever pay taxes by choice regardless of the fact that the government is their support and defense....

All of my life I have been a revolutionary, but any fool who looks for revolution with joy is a fool... No one knows how they will turn out any more than one knows going in how wars will turn out... Many innocent people can get hurt, and worst of all, it is usually for little or no gain that people revolt and die in the process...Naturally, while admitting human nature to be a great unknown of irrationality, I will not appeal to it for revolution.. Rather, I want formal consciousness, so that if people decide to change, or decide against change, that they know what they are dealing with, and know also that forms are what people change by way of adaptation to a new reality... If you don't like the old reality, you need a new form, and all of history has been the history of changing forms... Better I think, to do it as our founding fathers with some idea of what you are dealing with so it can be talked about in a rational fashion...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 10:23 am
@Fido,
When you fail to understand human nature, all the arguments you make about morals has no credibility. Your original premise is wrong, and what follows it are all wrong.

Once again; you cannot not legislate morals. Laws are established to protect the masses from crime. Without laws, many more will commit crimes for their own gain. Even with laws, many people still commit crimes. Just look at our justice system, and the number of people in jails and prisons. You are unable to see the reality of human nature.

You just don't "get it."
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 11:11 am
@Fido,
Quote:
First of all I don't care....

I realize you don't care about the facts.


That makes any of your conclusions suspect however. I certainly don't care whether you want to establish credibility but I don't see any reason to read what you have to say if you have no credibility.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 02:19 pm
@rabel22,
rabel22 wrote:

I think that its because a majority of citizens are like Okie and Icon. They only believe what the Glen becks and his ilk tell them because they are too lazy or too stupid to do their own research.


It seems as though the country is going through a know-nothing phase. It is not just Beck's nonsense, but the stuff coming from others on Fox, Republican and Tea Party leaders, et al. Virtually none of their proclamations can stand the light of the slightest bit of research. Just look at McConnell's statements that renewing the tax cuts for the wealthy will not add to the deficits.

I hope our country can survive these powerful forces of deception.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 02:37 pm
@Advocate,
Yup. Thems the facts, mam.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 06:29 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
First of all I don't care....

I realize you don't care about the facts.


That makes any of your conclusions suspect however. I certainly don't care whether you want to establish credibility but I don't see any reason to read what you have to say if you have no credibility.


What some fossil with one foot in the grave and the other in hell has to say I may find interesting, but I would not ever confuse it with the truth... Everyone paints themselves in the prettiest possible lights.. The meltdown of the Economy was in large part his, and his alone... So, I found it interesting, but as far as any deep down caring; count me out...Since you say I am wrong; prove me wrong...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2010 07:09 pm
@Fido,
Fido, When will you ever say something intelligent? The fiscal crisis was not one persons fault. You perception of real life just doesn't exist, or your interpretation about it is drawn entirely from your confused brain.

How can you talk about society and morals, and at the same time blame one individual who caused the financial meltdown? You have no logic; you contradict your own statements.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 02:50 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Fido, When will you ever say something intelligent? The fiscal crisis was not one persons fault. You perception of real life just doesn't exist, or your interpretation about it is drawn entirely from your confused brain.

How can you talk about society and morals, and at the same time blame one individual who caused the financial meltdown? You have no logic; you contradict your own statements.

He was in charge of the money supply, much of which is handed out for nothing to bankers to profit on with interest drained out of the people and the economy as a whole... And I saw him admit as much, that the meltdown dashed a long held principal of his that can only be called enlightened (class)self interest... He did not believe people would try to squeeze the last dollar out of a dying economy, that they would see all their lives and lively hoods and capitalism itself balanced so precariously while they undermind it of meaning... And those are my words, and not his, but that is actually what was done while he,who was supposed to be in charge looked on and did nothing because his long held principals did not aid his thought, but inhibited his thought...

Capitalism is Anarchy... WE need the laws, the surveilance of people, the police and the prisons, the coercion because freedom for free enterprise demands freedom for working people be crushed... Capitalism rejects all laws, and we are in no position to expect it be governed because economic forces more than any other demand that we be cut off from our communities as individuals to hasten and ease our exploitation... We can barely form any effective union against exploitation, and the government which should be our union will not protect our rights, and the communities which once stood together against all threats by law do not exist... So what is the true limit to our exploitation and degradation??? Some people leave and come back with a gun... Naturally they shoot the wrong people because they cannot touch the right people...
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Sep, 2010 08:01 am
@Fido,
Quote:
Since you say I am wrong; prove me wrong...


OK..
http://www.fcic.gov/hearings/pdfs/2010-0407-Greenspan.pdf

Nowhere does he mention low levels of home ownership.


Your turn to show where he did say it.

By the way, Greenspan doesn't say the meltdown was in large part his fault.
0 Replies
 
 

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