Critical thinking and political matters.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

But their point is that the association between 1.) Radical, hateful murder and 2.) The Islam religion, is wrong.

The fallacy is thus:
Those who murdered on 9/11 were Muslim
Those who murdered on 9/11 were hateful radicals
Therefore all Muslims are hateful radicals

A mosque is not a symbol of deviance or hateful radicalism, because all Muslims are not hateful radicals, nor does the religion advocate hateful radicalism. The vast majority are not hateful radicals, and in fact, only a small percentage are (and it should be noted that hateful radicals are not exclusive to the Islam faith). Drawing the association between (1) and (2) seems to be fallacious.

But if you do draw this association, why do you not draw an association between 1.) The hateful radicalism of the crusades and 2.) The Christian religion or construction of churches?

The irony is that, despite this, I don't think a mosque should be built near ground zero either. This is because I know people aren't as understanding as me, and quite a few Muslims would wind up dead. The mosque would probably be burned to the ground within two weeks - with the Muslims inside. At the least, someone would crash a personal airplane into it.

If the Christians have the constitutional right to build where they want even when it offends people, then so do the Muslims... With that said, I would add that compared to Christians, Muslims are absolute zealots to a person so the difference between the most radcal and the least seems to me to be pretty small... They come from honor societies, and are held to the faith by honor which is foreign in a money society, do there presence here is bound to demonstrate to them that there are but two kinds of American: Those who are strictly hypocritical Christians who deny their paganism, and those who are infidels openly, puting every matterial object between themselves and The God... Our best hope is that the too will be corrupted, but they are bound to have children who deny their corruption and assert Islam... It is an absolute mistake to have those people here because the more they know us the less respect they can have for us, and I say this with a great deal of respect for Islam which is the religion I would practice were it possible for me to actually have faith, and admit the possibility of knowledge...

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@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

why is ken so down on the shriners

i love those little cars

beep beep

I always thought they were too big for their britches, and now I see they have outgrown their Oldsmobiles...

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@Arjuna,

Arjuna wrote:

Zetherin wrote:

To everyone: I think we have misunderstood kennethamy. He was never claiming that all Muslims are hateful bigots. I think what he was claiming was that, the inevitable association between Muslims and deviance/hateful radicalism, even if fallacious, is a good reason for why the mosque should not be built in that area. That is why it would be unwise. And if that is what he was claiming, I completely agree.

Is that not why many people would support the mosque? To prove that Americans aren't a bunch of idiots?

There is no proof we are not a bunch of idiots, though idiots do come in gaggles...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

If the Christians have the constitutional right to build where they want even when it offends people, then so do the Muslims... With that said, I would add that compared to Christians, Muslims are absolute zealots to a person so the difference between the most radical and the least seems to me to be pretty small... They come from honor societies, and are held to the faith by honor which is foreign in a money society, do there presence here is bound to demonstrate to them that there are but two kinds of American: Those who are strictly hypocritical Christians who deny their paganism, and those who are infidels openly, putting every material object between themselves and The God... Our best hope is that the too will be corrupted, but they are bound to have children who deny their corruption and assert Islam... It is an absolute mistake to have those people here because the more they know us the less respect they can have for us, and I say this with a great deal of respect for Islam which is the religion I would practice were it possible for me to actually have faith, and admit the possibility of knowledge...

I often have all of those same reservations about Southern Baptists. And I don't have to imagine being one, I was raised in that environment.

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@Fido,

Fido wrote:

Muslims are absolute zealots to a person so the difference between the most radcal and the least seems to me to be pretty small...

May I ask how many Muslims you are closely-enough acquainted with to have serious conversations about religion with them? I'm curious how large a sample of Muslims you're drawing your conclusions from.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

Zetherin wrote:
It is a big issue because many Americans associate the mosque with terrorism.

It is currently a big issue because an election is coming up, and some right-wing politicians saw national development of this fear of Islam as beneficial. They're going for the always reliable frightened Republican vote.

There are over 100 mosques already in New York, several operating in Manhattan for years. There are Muslim prayer rooms within blocks of the currently proposed community centre. No debate about those.

Politics, baby, politics.

But that is why the republican more often succeed instead of the Democrats... The democrats in the liberalism and pramatism require an educated and aware electorate, while the republican can always rely upon the falability of the faithful, and the hopefulness of the ignorant...The democrats have to educate the population to be elected and the republican can count on prejudice, biggotry, and fear expressed as hatred... It is too bad, that even when given a chance, that the democrats will not lay it all on the line for their ideals, bust must inevitably consider their hopes in the next election... They do not gain on their enemies by giving away their friends, and their friends, those most likely to vote democrat have been a door mat for republicans for years... How are those people supposed to look at Mr. Obama acting more white and republican than the republicans just for a chance at re-election??? Before any person can be elected they must first prove they are corrupt, but they have no hope of out corrupting a population which is content to use rights against rights, to attack rights, or simply for self enrichment...

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Fido wrote:
Muslims are absolute zealots to a person so the difference between the most radcal and the least seems to me to be pretty small...

May I ask how many Muslims you are closely-enough acquainted with to have serious conversations about religion with them? I'm curious how large a sample of Muslims you're drawing your conclusions from.

I have a great number of books on the subject of Islam including With Lawrence in Arabia, and the delux Version of the Seven Pillars of Wisdom, by T.E. Lawrence, and a copy of the Holy Qu'ran... In addition, Michigan has a large population of Muslims, and this Area, Lansing, East Lansing... I have talked to many, know some by first name, have talked with many, Have joined them before for Friday night Prayer and sympathized with them...It means nothing to me that the book has some misunderstandings of Christianity and Judaism... What does matter to me is that they are Zealots in defense of their faith, though some, like the Wahabis talked of by Thomas in With Lawrance, are more radical yet... They are honorable people, the concept of which is foreign to us, but it is enough to say that they must swear to their faith every time they pray, so we should make certain in what we do that we do not attack their honor in order to attack their faith, that we keep the friends we have with them by being honrable, and attack only those who have made a point of our destruction...

1 Reply

@Razzleg,

Razzleg wrote:

Fido wrote:

If the Christians have the constitutional right to build where they want even when it offends people, then so do the Muslims... With that said, I would add that compared to Christians, Muslims are absolute zealots to a person so the difference between the most radical and the least seems to me to be pretty small... They come from honor societies, and are held to the faith by honor which is foreign in a money society, do there presence here is bound to demonstrate to them that there are but two kinds of American: Those who are strictly hypocritical Christians who deny their paganism, and those who are infidels openly, putting every material object between themselves and The God... Our best hope is that the too will be corrupted, but they are bound to have children who deny their corruption and assert Islam... It is an absolute mistake to have those people here because the more they know us the less respect they can have for us, and I say this with a great deal of respect for Islam which is the religion I would practice were it possible for me to actually have faith, and admit the possibility of knowledge...

I often have all of those same reservations about Southern Baptists. And I don't have to imagine being one, I was raised in that environment.

I agree... It is like the guy coming across a walled in area of heaven and in asking St. Peter about it found that there was where they kept the Baptists, wince they thought they were the only ones up there...

Contact with Islam is like Giving a Native American Whiskey and a Gun years ago...Their society is not at peace with ours, and suffism, in rejecting reason for faith would never have allowed their technological advancement as we have by inviting them in, and educating them... It is only a matter of time and money until they get the nukes they will with some justification use on us... Then it will not matter how many we kill because the remainder will be more radical yet...

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@Fido,

Fido wrote:

Arjuna wrote:

Zetherin wrote:

To everyone: I think we have misunderstood kennethamy. He was never claiming that all Muslims are hateful bigots. I think what he was claiming was that, the inevitable association between Muslims and deviance/hateful radicalism, even if fallacious, is a good reason for why the mosque should not be built in that area. That is why it would be unwise. And if that is what he was claiming, I completely agree.

Is that not why many people would support the mosque? To prove that Americans aren't a bunch of idiots?

There is no proof we are not a bunch of idiots, though idiots do come in gaggles...

Let me add here since I can no longer edit: We fight for rights we do not possess because we are told we have them, and we do not have democracy, but only the right to abridge the rights of others so long as we can get a majority, we live with parties though they have no protection in the constitution even though they add another level of inertia to a form already burdened with inertia, and we let the government limit representation so that with every addition to the population we all receive less, and far less that our revolutionary forefathers who had less means, and more sense... Why do we accept, that while we were given a government designed to grow with a growing population to keep government democratic and responsive, first slowed its growth and then stopped its gowth so that we once had one representative for every thirty K, and now have one representative for every 600+ K of population...That is how government has come to rule instead of being ruled by the population... So no one here can claim we are not stupid... No person is ruled except out of stupidity, but since we were alway denied power we could safely be denied education, and because we had no education we could be denied power...

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@Fido,

Fido wrote:

I have a great number of books on the subject of Islam

That's good for you, but it wasn't my question. My question was how many Muslim people do you know, and talk about religion with, in real life.

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@Thomas,

I think what he means is that those who call themselves Muslim are usually more strict with their tenents, than those who call themselves Christians are with their tenents. When he used the word "zealot", I am not sure he meant that Muslims are radicals, only that they are very passionate about their religion.

That said, I couldn't really make out what his main point was. I can't understand that sort of writing.

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@Razzleg,

Ha ha! they keep sucking you back into the thread you didn't want to comment in

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

I think what he means is that those who call themselves Muslim are usually more strict with their tenents, than those who call themselves Christians are with their tenents. When he used the word "zealot", I am not sure he meant that Muslims are radicals, only that they are very passionate about their religion.

That said, I couldn't really make out what his main point was. I can't understand that sort of writing.

Definition of ZEALOT
1
capitalized : a member of a fanatical sect arising in Judea during the first century a.d. and militantly opposing the Roman domination of Palestine
2
: a zealous person; especially : a fanatical partisan <a religious zealot>

A friend of mine, who comes from Mumbai (formerly Bombay) in India, told me that there is a saying in Hindi which goes something like, never argue with a Muslim, for he cannot be persuaded.

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@kennethamy,

Was your point that Muslims are inherently radical, or just that Fido did mean that Muslims are radical?

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Fido wrote:
I have a great number of books on the subject of Islam

That's good for you, but it wasn't my question. My question was how many Muslim people do you know, and talk about religion with, in real life.

More than I can tally up at this moment... I talk about religion with almost everyone I meet in some fashion, though usually I just remind them that God is Great, and welcome them to America... Cultural diversity is only a threat if we think in absolute terms which have the danger of bringing us tyranny...As I said, I admire them, and recognize in them a danger since they can hardly accept us, or our style of life and their religion too, which is rather absolutist...It would be far better for us to remain apart, each in our own worlds, but this clash of culture is inevitable given the needs of capital for markets, resources, and profit... Their conflict is not with us, and ours is not with them... Our true conflict is with capital as our common enemy and a veritable apple of discord...

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

I think what he means is that those who call themselves Muslim are usually more strict with their tenents, than those who call themselves Christians are with their tenents. When he used the word "zealot", I am not sure he meant that Muslims are radicals, only that they are very passionate about their religion.

That said, I couldn't really make out what his main point was. I can't understand that sort of writing.

Mainly, my point is that we cannot view Islam from some liberal ideological bubble... We should all read and understand and talk with Muslims in order to know as much as we can about these intelligent and sincere people... It would absolutly be better for us to be apart, but capital and the needs of capital bring us into contact without resolving our ignorance and mutual prejudices... They are God's own people and we are not, so they are dangerous to us once they realize our nature, which is essentially Heathen....

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Was your point that Muslims are inherently radical, or just that Fido did mean that Muslims are radical?

We call ourselves Christians and talk about peace on earth and are the largest exporter of war materials and war itself, much of which is made on Islam... In the practice of our predominant religion we are lackluster and deficient, for the most part hypocritical, expecting our neighbors to be better than we, when we cannot be good, and generally worshipping all material things before our God as no self respecting Muslim would do... Such people are bound to seem to be radicals and zealots, but such behavior, in a sense, has been forced on them... As I said, With Lawrence In Arabia, by Lowell Thomas, written shortly after the end of the first world war gives prominent mention to the ultra extreme Wahabis from which Bin Ladin came years later... These peoples reaction to Europeans trampling all over the land of the prophet was in no sense unusual for them, and it played a huge part in the declaration of war made my Bin Ladin... And I make no claim to understanding these people, but I know, as is stated in the Art of War, that if you do not understand your enemy you have at most, a 50/50 chance of beating him, and the thought of beating a billion and a half people is ridiculous to begin with...

And for what, when we have more in common with these Muslims than with the Jews, or any group of pagans with whom we are surrounded... The simple fact is that their religion works for them as ours does not work for us... We have moved beyond religion without troubling to inform the ignorant out of an undesrved respect... The Christians are forever meddling in the affairs of government and state which should be the place where reason rules, and where faith now dominates... Government should work for all the people, bring justice to all, and the Christians are incapable of grasping that quasi concept except through the medium of another Quasi concept called Gad...

Is it too much to ask, that if you have faith in God to trust in your faith and not forever seek power over others??? Those who seek religious freedom should give freedom of religion which is freedom of thought to all, and that means allowing those who want to make government work -the freedom to do so...The damned Christians will destroy this country because they do not have the nads to hold to their faith, but like all hypocrits condem the rightious, and abuse the virtuous to have what is theirs, and to have a power they are in no sense entitled to... Be free to practice religion, but pay for the right to participate in government as others... Leave your prejudices at the door... Lay your treasure in the common heap, and defend it with everyone in the common wealth...

I have more in common with the most miserable and poor Muslim than I do with the most wealthy of Christians... The problem with Christians most clearly stated is that they make their God small, and the Muslims make their God large...The Christian God, demanding sacrifice and faith of little worth is no better than some pagan diety further removed from the earth... The sight of Abraham bargaining with God, or Jacob wrestling with God is reproduced every day in America on a vast acale... In the end, god is tossed back into the toy box with all the other fetishes that have lost their charm, and we begin to worship our true gods of wealth and power...

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@kennethamy,

Quote:

A friend of mine, who comes from Mumbai (formerly Bombay) in India, told me that there is a saying in Hindi which goes something like, never argue with a Muslim, for he cannot be persuaded.

That could be said about just anybody. Including many on this board.
Why did you pick Muslims? Other than bigotry.

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One of the craziest ideas of the right is to renew tax cuts for the rich. It is as though the disparity between the rich and the rest of us is not big enough now. And the cuts will not help small business, but will give $3 million apiece to the richest 120,000.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/opinion/23krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

1 Reply

@Intrepid,

ken did NOT pick Muslims: he quoted someone else, who identified an axiom.

1 Reply

Critical thinking and political matters.

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