Critical thinking and political matters.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Maybe that is why some people would support the mosque. I don't know. What I do know is that if I were a Muslim who lived in NY and that mosque was built near ground zero, I wouldn't be going anywhere near it as I would fear for my safety.

Imagine being a Muslim walking down Church street in order to get to your mosque. Think you'd get a sneer or two?

I understand that, but the prevailing belief is that Islam is not responsible for terrorism. So this is saying that the terrorists are wrong in suggesting otherwise.

So submit to anti-Islamic angst... this is a convoluted support of the terrorist's outlook isn't? Not to mention a betrayal of our own values.

See what I'm saying? Fear for Muslims who might attend the mosque can't be a reason for opposing it. Since when do we fold on standing up for our own values?

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@InfraBlue,

Quote:

So, because of the inevitable fallacious association between Muslims and deviance/hateful radicalism it's a good reason to not build the mosque?

I think so, yes. This particular fallacious association I believe would put the safety of Muslim lives in jeopardy.

InfraBlue wrote:

Unless you explain why that is a good reason not to, you're begging the question.

Now now, let's not get too ahead of ourselves. There's no begging the question here. But if you do believe there is, then please present exactly the proposition which I am assuming true without proof. Thanks.

Quote:

Why should people's fallacious associations be reasons to do or refrain from doing anything?

One reason is because fallacious associations can make peoples' lives a living hell.

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Arjuna wrote:

I understand that, but the prevailing belief is that Islam is not responsible for terrorism

Are you sure about that? Do not be fooled with the reasonableness that you see on forums like these. I would say the complete opposite is the case, and you can clearly see this just by how much fuss was created over this issue. If the prevailing belief is that Muslims are not responsible, why do you think the construction of the mosque is such a big issue? It is a big issue because many Americans associate the mosque with terrorism.

Quote:

See what I'm saying? Fear for Muslims who might attend the mosque can't be a reason for opposing it. Since when do we fold on standing up for our own values?

Of course it can be a reason. I'm not saying I wish to present it in any rigorous form, or that I have in-depth analysis of why I am correct. This belief is admittedly based heavily on my personal experience - the discrimination I have, and still see, in this country. And I know I am not the only one who shares this belief.

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@Zetherin,

Good post, I agree.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

It is a big issue because many Americans associate the mosque with terrorism.

It is currently a big issue because an election is coming up, and some right-wing politicians saw national development of this fear of Islam as beneficial. They're going for the always reliable frightened Republican vote.

There are over 100 mosques already in New York, several operating in Manhattan for years. There are Muslim prayer rooms within blocks of the currently proposed community centre. No debate about those.

Politics, baby, politics.

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@ehBeth,

Even if the issue was purely political initially, it has transformed into something more. Discrimination is stirring, and it ain't pretty.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Maybe that is why some people would support the mosque. I don't know. What I do know is that if I were a Muslim who lived in NY and that mosque was built near ground zero, I wouldn't be going anywhere near it as I would fear for my safety.

Imagine being a Muslim walking down Church street in order to get to your mosque. Think you'd get a sneer or two?

Fear for their safety? Are you suggesting that Americans are the same as the terrorists who some claim are responsible for violence against Americans?

1 Reply

@Intrepid,

I'm not suggesting Americans are anything. Am I suggesting that some Americans are capable of atrocious acts, just as some Muslims are? Absolutely.

By the way, I've found over a dozen articles from reputable sources concerning the building of the mosque on ground zero, and a good number of the respondents had harsh, negative comments. Really, you wouldn't believe some of the things that were said by people on there.

The people that participated in the rally against the proposed mosque today didn't appear that understanding either. One person was even quoted as saying, "If the mosque gets built, we will bombard it".

Yes, I do fear for Muslim lives, and I believe I have good reason to.

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@Zetherin,

When I said prevailing I was thinking about GW Bush's efforts to separate Al-Qaeda from Islam. I respect your experience and I respect your opinion.

If we say that threatening racists will dictate our actions, what precedent does that set? What message does that convey to young people?

I guess you're imagining an innocent victim resulting from the establishment of a mosque? Would it be worth it? Is that right?

1 Reply

There was a protest in NYC against the proposed cultural center today:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/08/22/new.york.mosque.protests/index.html

People on both sides of the matter showed up:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/22/ground-zero-protests-islamic-center_n_690504.html

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@Zetherin,

Sad commentary on the "civilized" world.

[edit]
I just realized what I did there. I lumped many into what a few would do. I am glad that I caught myself.

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@Arjuna,

It's really a tough issue. We're damned if you do, damned if we don't. If we do construct the mosque, we run the risk of all these hateful bigots stirring up a riot and creating havoc. Not to mention, all the overly patriotic Americans are going to feel as though we've disgraced America in some way, and who knows what political issues that will create. But if we don't construct the mosque, then it is easy to see how people will feel discriminated as we've essentially compromised the rights of American Muslims.

Intrepid wrote:

Sad commentary on the "civilized" world.

[edit]
I just realized what I did there. I lumped many into what a few would do. I am glad that I caught myself.

Can you reiterate? What do you mean?

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Sad commentary on the "civilized" world.

[edit]
I just realized what I did there. I lumped many into what a few would do. I am glad that I caught myself.

Can you reiterate? What do you mean?

I was just commenting on what you had written about the protest in New York

Quote:

The people that participated in the rally against the proposed mosque today didn't appear that understanding either. One person was even quoted as saying, "If the mosque gets built, we will bombard it".

Yes, I do fear for Muslim lives, and I believe I have good reason to.

I was commenting that this situation is a sad commentary of the civilized world. I then realized that I was doing just what those who oppose the mosque are doing. I was lumping everyone into the civilized world that would do these things. Clearly, they are in the minority and I edited to point out that I had done the same thing without thinking.

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The new Times magazine cover really sums up the issue on this nicely.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/current

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Intrepid wrote:

I was commenting that this situation is a sad commentary of the civilized world. I then realized that I was doing just what those who oppose the mosque are doing. I was lumping everyone into the civilized world that would do these things. Clearly, they are in the minority and I edited to point out that I had done the same thing without thinking.

I gotcha, and I was simply noting that there is intense opposition over this. I mean, just look at that Time magazine cover Kielicious just linked.

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@Zetherin,

Seems America is suffering from all kinds of phobia that is neither American or shows any tolerance. The face of America has been changed for the foreseeable future, and the picture is very ugly.

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When you think about it, those against the construction of this building to house Muslim activities are not against it per se but are angry over their opinion that it is too close to ground zero.

Do they want to set up guidelines for siting of controversial buildings? It is silly.

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@cicerone imposter,

That would probably make a good thread.

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Fear of ourselves can't be the answer.

If we don't have faith in ourselves, what we do will demonstrate that... that our values aren't worth standing up for.

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@Arjuna,

Looking at the larger picture when our men and women serve in our military to keep our country free, those trying to impose their own emotion on other people's lives shows that the sacrifice they have made is worthless.

We used to say that America was the Land of the Free. It isn't any longer, because people want to impose their "feelings" to control other people's lives.

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Critical thinking and political matters.

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