20
   

fed judge stops arizona immigration law

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 10:44 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
It's an issue of states' rights - very relevant in both cases. Your quote omits the relevant part of my post >

Except on ONE issue the Federal government is given EXCLUSIVE power by the Constitution. States don't have rights when the right is granted to the Federal government.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 10:46 am
@parados,
You obviously don't know the meaning of the term "actuarial deficit" - look it up, I'm not going to explain. And the burden of educating children of illegal aliens - not included in Medicare/Medicaid, but ordered by the federal courts - falls entirely on the states. So the North Carolina study you quote is irrelevant - even if its methodology were valid, which is very doubtful. Why don't you refer to Krugman's analysis instead? He covers the entire country, understands "actuarial" only too well - just happens to disagree with you, his party, and PC in general. He's right all the same.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 10:48 am
@parados,
There are enumerated rights. Several. Enumerated. In the constitution. Not "ONE issue". Please stop wasting my time.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 10:49 am
@High Seas,
So that means the feds will be repudiated in the courts?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 10:57 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
You obviously don't know the meaning of the term "actuarial deficit" - look it up, I'm not going to explain.


She's not going to explain because she would just screw it up herself. Par for the course.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 10:57 am
@edgarblythe,
You'll have to ask a prophet. All I know is numbers - these are the numbers, not doubted by any reputable economist. This from Krugman:
Quote:
...modern America is a welfare state, even if our social safety net has more holes in it than it should — and low-skill immigrants threaten to unravel that safety net. [...] Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive.

Worse yet, immigration penalizes governments that act humanely. Immigrants are a much more serious fiscal problem in California than in Texas, which treats the poor and unlucky harshly, regardless of where they were born..

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1&hp
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 11:02 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
But in a different domain - "illegal drugs" - the federal government has already told the states it will not interfere with enforcement, or lack thereof, by the states themselves.

As you say, that's in a different domain. Some differences between the two domains have consequences under the US constitution. Specifically---

  • To the extent that illegal drugs are produced and traded within a state, it falls within its police power to curb their production, distribution, and consumption.

  • On the other hand, suppressing the commerce in illegal drugs across state and international borders is a federal power under the commerce clause. So to the extent that the Feds delegate enforcement to the state, that's a federal policy, not a state right.

  • Therefore, where illegal drugs are concerned, there is a gray area where a genuine state right clashes with a genuine federal power.

In this sense, illegal drugs are very different from illegal immigrants, which always come from outside the state, and always fall under the federal government's jurisdiction.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 11:12 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
...modern America is a welfare state, even if our social safety net has more holes in it than it should


So America is already the socialist state that Ican, Okie and the rest want to stop from happening. It's just a socialist state that does it poorly.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 11:12 am
@High Seas,
America is a welfare state, alright, with the bulk of the welfare going to the govt and military-industrial concerns.
rabel22
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 12:17 pm
@edgarblythe,
You are right on! Our local cop stopped a car for speeding and asked for a drivers license. They produced one mexican drivers license for three individuals. They were illegals and he called the feds but they were too busy to bother with them so he had to let them go. This is how the feds protect us from illegal immigration.
edgarblythe
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 12:23 pm
@rabel22,
As it should be.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 03:46 pm
@rabel22,
I strongly suspect that all three weren't driving at the same time.
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 10:24 pm
@JTT,
Only one license among three people and from mexico to Ny. You believe that only one of them drove all the way?
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 11:03 pm
@edgarblythe,
Please take up your welfare state issue with Paul Krugman (Nobel prize economics) who is being quoted in this instance.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 11:09 pm
@rabel22,
That's not the point, Rabel. If there were ten people in a car, can a police officer ask for everyone's DL?
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 11:21 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

.....So to the extent that the Feds delegate enforcement to the state, that's a federal policy, not a state right. ...

You do recall that any rights not specifically granted to the federal government or to the states belong to the people? While these fine constitutional points are being debated, the people have obviously decided to take matters into their own hands. Latest from just one tiny town in NY:
Quote:
The police said Saturday’s attack was at least the 10th instance in the past four months in which assailants, mostly young black men, have assaulted Mexican immigrants walking in Port Richmond, which has seen the number of Mexican residents climb sharply over the past two decades.

The police say they are investigating the latest attack as a hate crime. They also treated the nine earlier cases as hate crimes, though in the three cases in which arrests have been made, grand jurors declined prosecutors’ requests to indict the suspects on hate-crime charges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/nyregion/02staten.html
There is urgency in solving the problem: these people are being attacked - many have been murdered. Prosecuting assailants for "hate crimes" doesn't work because illegals aren't protected as a class. How bad do things have to get before the states are forced to take action, in your opinion?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2010 05:44 am
@High Seas,
Krugman, Smugman - facts is facts.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2010 06:35 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
You do recall that any rights not specifically granted to the federal government or to the states belong to the people?

Reread the Tenth Amendment. That's not quite what it says. In any event, the power to regulate migration was granted to the federal government under the Commerce Clause, even by the original understanding of the Commerce Clause. It therefore does not belong to the people.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2010 06:56 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

You obviously don't know the meaning of the term "actuarial deficit" - look it up, I'm not going to explain. And the burden of educating children of illegal aliens - not included in Medicare/Medicaid, but ordered by the federal courts - falls entirely on the states. So the North Carolina study you quote is irrelevant - even if its methodology were valid, which is very doubtful. Why don't you refer to Krugman's analysis instead? He covers the entire country, understands "actuarial" only too well - just happens to disagree with you, his party, and PC in general. He's right all the same.


I guess Krugman must not know that meaning either since he seems to agree with me...
Quote:
And the political threat that low-skill immigration poses to the welfare state is more serious than the fiscal threat: the disastrous Medicare drug bill alone does far more to undermine the finances of our social insurance system than the whole burden of dealing with illegal immigrants.
Immigrants aren't as large of a threat to Medicare as other issues are.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Aug, 2010 08:23 am
@Thomas,
That argument is irrelevant when the issue becomes assault (with only the worst cases being reported) and murder. Credit default swaps for California's debt (pls refer to Krugman quote on this page referring to CA vs TX) are trading at par with Greece's and Portugal's. To wit, junk. So are Michigan's; New York, Arizona, and others are coming close. It took default by another state (Arkansas) in the 1930s for the federal government to finally round up and deport millions of illegal aliens, mostly Mexicans. If the economic situation doesn't improve soon - and no reputable economist really expects it to - it may take another state default to lead to a similar result. Certainly the assaults and murders cannot be allowed to continue - hope you agree with that part.
 

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