20
   

fed judge stops arizona immigration law

 
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 09:29 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
They go to court to nullify popular votes

That's kinda why they designed our three-branch government with checks and balances. The courts are there to protect the individuals against the depredations of the majority.

Why do you hate the Constitution?
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 09:37 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
The Fifth Amendment doesn't say that people cannot be questioned about crimes.

No, it says they can't be detained without due process of law. Can you define "due process of law"? It doesn't just mean that whatever law is on the books gets a pass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process

Quote:
By the middle of the 19th century, "due process of law" was interpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court to mean that “it was not left to the legislative power to enact any process which might be devised. The [due process] article is a restraint on the legislative as well as on the executive and judicial powers of the government, and cannot be so construed as to leave Congress free to make any process ‘due process of law’ by its mere will.”[23] But determining what those restraints are has been a subject of considerable disagreement.


Although I did quote the wrong amendment. The 5th Amendment only applies to the Federal government. I should have quoted the 14th Amendment.

Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 09:38 am
@DrewDad,
I'll add that Thomas and Joe can interpret the court's actual reasoning much better than I can.... This is just my take on why the Arizona law should be tossed out.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 10:00 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

I'll add that Thomas and Joe can interpret the court's actual reasoning much better than I can.... This is just my take on why the Arizona law should be tossed out.

I hasten to interject that unlike joefromchicago, I'm not a jurist either. My only basis for commenting here comes from reading the court's injunction first, and from applying standard reading comprehension to what I've read. But even that seems too much to ask of some other people who happily dispense their opinions. So I guess plain reading comprehension is enough to make me an expert, relatively speaking.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 10:11 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
So I guess plain reading comprehension is enough to make me an expert, relatively speaking


I think "just plain reading" sets you apart from some commentators.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 10:12 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
They go to court to nullify popular votes and hope for the best in terms of drawing a liberal judge who will invent fictitious parts of the Constitution.

Popular or not, their point is that there were no votes to nullify. The US constitution does not give people a vote on each other's human rights. It doesn't give state governments, or the voters who elected them, a say in federal matters such as migration. Hence, your appeal to the Arizona law's popularity is mute.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 10:25 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Hence, your appeal to the Arizona law's popularity is mute.

Moot, presumably, is meant? It isn't - nor is vox populi mute, by definition. Courts necessarily take account of popular sentiment - it would be absurd to claim otherwise. So did Judge Bolton. Next, the 9th Circuit, unless a related decision by the Supreme Court preempts that decision. I've an open question addressed to David (who served as a judge) but if Joe (also a distinguished jurist), or anyone else knows the answer please post it:
http://able2know.org/topic/159304-2#post-4302721
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 10:32 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
Moot, presumably, is meant?

It did.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 11:34 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
Pick one clause [demonstrating a federal power to regulate immigration, T.], quote it here, and let's see.

On second thought, I actually would like to answer that. While I continue to maintain that you are in a weak position to make this request, I am not here to please you. I am here to contribute reasoned arguments to anyone bothering to hear them.

When gaging the original understanding of the US constitution, I usually follow a two-step process. Step 1: Read the clause in question. Step 2: Look up the clause in The Founders' Constitution, compiled by originalist jurists for the University of Chicago Press. It will point to founding-era documents illuminating what the clause was understood to mean by the people who passed it, and by the first generation or two of jurists who applied it to real cases. (Usually the last entry for each clause comes from Supreme Court Justice Josef Story's Commentaries (1833). In my opinion, The Founders' Constitution is as close as any layman can get to figuring out how the founders understood the constitution.

With these preliminaries taken care of, let's start with the Migration and Importation Clause. It reads: "The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."

From going through The Founders' Constitution's page on the clause I learned that the main concern at the time was the slave trade. But here and there, I also saw that it applied to voluntary immigration, too. Story (1833) sums it up best:

Supreme Court justice Joseph Story, interpreting the migration wrote:
$1331:

This clause of the constitution, respecting the importation of slaves, is manifestly an exception from the power of regulating commerce. Migration seems appropriately to apply to voluntary arrivals, as importation does to involuntary arrivals; and so far, as an exception from a power proves its existence, this proves, that the power to regulate commerce applies equally to the regulation of vessels employed in transporting men, who pass from place to place voluntarily, as to those, who pass involuntarily."

So even by the original understanding of the constitution, the Commerce Clause gives the US government the power to regulate immigration. But does that mean the states have no say in it? Can't they make their own laws regulating commerce? Even before Story, the Supreme Court's Chief Justice Marshal decided they don't.

Handing down the Supreme Court's decision in Gibbons v. Ogden (1817), Chief Justice Marshal wrote:
In argument, however, it has been contended, that if a law passed by a State, in the exercise of its acknowledged sovereignty, comes into conflict with a law passed by Congress in pursuance of the constitution, they affect the subject, and each other, like equal opposing powers.

But the framers of our constitution foresaw this state of things, and provided for it, by declaring the supremacy not only of itself, but of the laws made in pursuance of it. The nullity of any act, inconsistent with the constitution, is produced by the declaration, that the constitution is the supreme law. The appropriate application of that part of the clause which confers the same supremacy on laws and treaties, is to such acts of the State Legislatures as do not transcend their powers, but, though enacted in the execution of acknowledged State powers, interfere with, or are contrary to the laws of Congress, made in pursuance of the constitution, or some treaty made under the authority of the United States.

Like it or not: The US constitution gives the federal government exclusive power to regulate immigration, and Arizona has no say in it. Far from this being the opinion of a liberal activist judge, this has been the state of the law since the Founding Era. It's that simple.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 01:20 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:


Like it or not: The US constitution gives the federal government exclusive power to regulate immigration, and Arizona has no say in it. Far from this being the opinion of a liberal activist judge, this has been the state of the law since the Founding Era. It's that simple.

The body of jurisprudence contradicting that conclusion is too vast to cite individually; at least you could look up laws and precedents cited by Judge Bolton in her decision on SB 1070: http://tucsoncitizen.com/mark-evans/files/2010/07/sb1070boltonruling3.pdf >
Quote:
Federal immigration law also envisions certain areas of cooperation in immigration
enforcement among the federal government and state and local governments.
.....appropriately trained and
supervised state and local officials can perform certain immigration responsibilities.....parameters for information-sharing between state and local officials and...authorizing state and local law enforcement
officials to arrest aliens unlawfully present in the United States
who have previously been
convicted of a felony and deported...

> as well as the Supreme Court unanimous decision (UNITED STATES v. BRIGNONI-PONCE, 422 U.S. 873 (1975)) recognizing that officers can rely on "the characteristic appearance of persons who live in Mexico, relying on such factors as the mode of dress and haircut" as probable cause for:
Quote:
.... the minimal intrusion of a brief stop, ... the absence of practical alternatives for policing the border, we hold that when an officer's observations lead him reasonably to suspect that a particular vehicle may contain aliens who are illegally in the country, he may stop the car briefly and investigate the circumstances that provoke suspicion.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=422&invol=873
parados
 
  5  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 01:47 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
Federal immigration law also envisions certain areas of cooperation in immigration
enforcement among the federal government and state and local governments. .....appropriately trained and
supervised state and local officials can perform certain immigration responsibilities.....parameters for information-sharing between state and local officials and...authorizing state and local law enforcement
officials to arrest aliens unlawfully present in the United States who have previously been
convicted of a felony and deported...

I don't know High Seas, but the only way I can read that part is that the Federal immigration law is what allows cooperation and authorizes local officials. Nowhere does it allow a state to override Federal law or control.

The Feds can decide to let states help but states aren't authorized to decide what they want to do on their own when it exceeds what they are allowed to do by Federal law.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 04:54 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
The body of jurisprudence contradicting that conclusion is too vast to cite individually;

Perhaps so, but the passage you're citing is not an instance of such jurisprudence. Note: "Federal immigration law also envisions certain area of cooperation." It is the federal government's prerogative to delegate some of its powers to state agencies---or not. It is the federal government's business to regulate the terms on which States cooperate with it.

Here the state of Arizona is setting its own rules on how to deal with migrant workers, and the federal government doesn't like those rules. It is now the business of Arizona to buzz off and leave immigration to the authority the US constitution assigned it to.

PS: Or in other words, what Parados said. I should have read his post before responding to yours. (Talk about reading setting me apart ...)
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 05:12 pm
@DrewDad,
is that what the s p court did when they decided that corporations were people and money was speach so the corporations could spend all the money they wanted to to buy legislatiors? Seems to me that money is one constant in government. And screwing the common man is the other.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 10:10 pm
@rabel22,
For me the problem is considering a corporation to be a legal entity like a person. That's never made sense to me.

I do think people ought to be able to use their money for political speech.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jul, 2010 10:37 pm
@DrewDad,
They've got to be legal enough to be sued. They're not person enough to go to jail.

I suppose unions are incorporated. Can they use money for political speech?
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 08:03 am
@parados,
That was my understanding also - the listing by judge Bolton is of related laws and regulations already in force. But in a different domain - "illegal drugs" - the federal government has already told the states it will not interfere with enforcement, or lack thereof, by the states themselves. Marijuana growing and trading in California is one such example. Holder and his Justice Department could have left Arizona alone in this case as well. Instead they chose to go to court claiming imminent danger to the United States; am absolutely not clear what that danger might be, other than bankruptcy if the ongoing hemorrhage of welfare programs continues unabated - but they cited some different grounds.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 08:07 am
@Thomas,
You're right - careless wording on my part. We'll have to wait for the 9th Circuit and the Supreme Court for more clarity.

My main concern is the $40+ trillion actuarial deficit of federal programs like Medicare / Medicaid etc, not illegal immigration per se.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 09:24 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
That was my understanding also - the listing by judge Bolton is of related laws and regulations already in force. But in a different domain - "illegal drugs" - the federal government has already told the states it will not interfere with enforcement, or lack thereof, by the states themselves.

That is an entirely different issue. The Constitution doesn't give the Federal government total say in drug laws. States are allowed to make stricter laws for drugs if they so desire and the Federal government would have no say over it because they are not given exclusive rights for the issue.

Quote:
Marijuana growing and trading in California is one such example. Holder and his Justice Department could have left Arizona alone in this case as well. Instead they chose to go to court claiming imminent danger to the United States; am absolutely not clear what that danger might be, other than bankruptcy if the ongoing hemorrhage of welfare programs continues unabated - but they cited some different grounds.

But that is the complete opposite of this situation. Arizona didn't pass more lenient laws about immigration. They passed stricter laws.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 09:27 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

You're right - careless wording on my part. We'll have to wait for the 9th Circuit and the Supreme Court for more clarity.

My main concern is the $40+ trillion actuarial deficit of federal programs like Medicare / Medicaid etc, not illegal immigration per se.

So why are you even here then since illegal immigration is NOT contributing much to the actuarial deficit in Medicare/Medicaid?

Quote:
Less than 1 percent of Medicaid spending went to health care for illegal immigrants, according to a study that the researchers said defied a common belief that they are a bigger drain on taxpayer money

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1346120320070313
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Aug, 2010 10:40 am
@parados,
It's an issue of states' rights - very relevant in both cases. Your quote omits the relevant part of my post >
Quote:
the federal government has already told the states it will not interfere with enforcement, or lack thereof, by the states themselves.

(italics added)
 

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