Booman - the post stays there unedited for you to re-read if you wish. Nothing is more boring than people who will quote themselves. Thank you!
Thought So....I rest my case.
Booman - since you never had a case to begin with it might as well stay "rested" in its nonexistent state. The subject here is the Japanese nuclear drops - if they had been Russian tests in Siberia (and they came up with a 50 megaton monster, never equalled or exceeded by us) then the subject would have been "Russians" and not "Japanese". The "racist" problem is in your perception and not in any posts here.
Ref. Ossobuco's father's work on the Able and Baker nuclear tests:
"Planned operations included detonation of two devices in two separate tests code named Able and Baker. The location to be used was Bikini Atoll and its lagoon, recently vacated by the Bikinians. As a safety measure, islanders from Eniwetok, Rongelap and Wotho atolls were also relocated from their homes for the duration of Operation Crossroads."
http://nuclearhistory.tripod.com/testing.html#eni
Quote:Now the Union soldiers never shot at the horses, only at the riders, so even allowing for lack of precision shooting in those days I (personally) think that was an even greater war crime than murdering Japanese civilians; citizens should bear some responsibility for the actions of their governments, animals have no such duty. Anyone who doesn't love horses needn't comment on this post - thanks in advance <G>
Please clarify. You think the death of horses is a greater war crime than murdering Japanese civilians? Is that what you really meant?
Joe(Wha?)Nation
So...someone else noticed...brace yourself Joe..
HofT wrote:Ref. Ossobuco's father's work on the Able and Baker nuclear tests:
"Planned operations included detonation of two devices in two separate tests code named Able and Baker. The location to be used was Bikini Atoll and its lagoon, recently vacated by the Bikinians. As a safety measure, islanders from Eniwetok, Rongelap and Wotho atolls were also relocated from their homes for the duration of Operation Crossroads."
http://nuclearhistory.tripod.com/testing.html#eni
Yes.
That was the place.
Do you wonder I am anti bomb?
Or will you argue with me that I shouldn't feel as I do.
I am without doubt that people who have been bombed can wish me ill.
I was five.
But, so are a lot of dead.
No, I don't personally take responsibility for a world of bombs.
But - trust me - I am not in a state of delight.
Ossobuco - your father was obviously a very brave man. I always wondered who would stand close enough to this apocalypse >
> to take photographs..
Joe - from the rest of my post that you quoted it's evident that "any and all" enemy civilians are meant; the only reason Japanese were specified is that they are in fact the only ones so far to have been killed by nuclear weapons.
P.S. that's not quite correct as many additional casualties resulted from testing a thermonuclear weapon which ended up with a yield almost triple the estimated one due to a calculation error:
__________________________________________
"Shot Bravo was the largest device ever detonated by the U.S. Government as part of atmospheric nuclear weapons testing. Bravo was the first test shot in the Castle series and took place on an artificial island 2,950 feet off Nam Island at Bikini Atoll on February 28, 1954. The device, named Shrimp, was a solid lithium deuteride fueled two stage thermonuclear device based on the Teller-Ulam design. Shrimp weighed 23,500 pounds, was 53.9 inches wide, and 179.5 inches long with a Racer IV fusion boosted primary. It was fueled with 40% enriched lithium-6 deuteride in a natural uranium tamper, inside a light, aluminum casing. Expected yield was 4-8 megatons, equivalent to 4,000-8,000 Kt. Due to an unexpected reaction of the lithium deuteride in which lithium-7 atoms split into a tritium and a helium atom when struck by high energy neutrons, producing enough supremely reactive tritium to boost the yield 2 ½ times higher than expected to 15 Mt. This increased yield was something of a disaster, exposing hundreds of Marshallese and others to radioactive fallout.."
__________________________________________
http://nuclearhistory.tripod.com/testing2.html#castle
The pic I posted came from the Bravo test:
http://members.tripod.com/~coobird/castle.htm
P.P.S. to these casualties must be added those caused by Russian nuclear tests, on which I've no exact figures.
HofT: I asked you this question:
Quote:Please clarify. You think the death of horses is a greater war crime than murdering Japanese civilians? Is that what you really meant?
You answered:
Quote:Joe - from the rest of my post that you quoted it's evident that "any and all" enemy civilians are meant; the only reason Japanese were specified is that they are in fact the only ones so far to have been killed by nuclear weapons.
Here are your words:
HofT wrote:Not to sidetrack the thread but I've often thought about the statistic that 90% of the horses of the Southern regiments at Gettysburg died at the battlefield.
Now the Union soldiers never shot at the horses, only at the riders, so even allowing for lack of precision shooting in those days I (personally) think that was an even greater war crime than murdering Japanese civilians; citizens should bear some responsibility for the actions of their governments, animals have no such duty. Anyone who doesn't love horses needn't comment on this post - thanks in advance <G>
I don't think it's at all
evident that you meant "any and all" enemy civilians. You wrote what you meant or you didn't, which is it? And besides that, the death of horses described as "an even greater war crime" than the death of ANY human being appears to me to particularly odious on this weekend in America. I know you were just trying to share your love of horseflesh, but you picked a peculiarly awkward, and yes, seemingly racist, way of expressing it.
Joe(Happy Memorial Day, what an odd expression)Nation
Joe - were it not for the fact that you served honorably in the USAF during the Vietnam war I would indeed reply to you.
As it is I will limit myself to wishing you better thinking than to support posts by a dimwit who's watched too, too, many Perry Mason re-re-re-runs and says "Did you or did you not say..." and suchlike drivel when my own posts remain unedited for anyone who wishes to consult them.
Truly I find the racism allegations beneath contempt and beneath further notice on my part. I do hope to hear from Ossobuco on her late father's work, and also from the other posters who actually have info to contribute.
HofT
Yeah. Thanks for the wishes for better thinking and I wish you better, and more thoughtful, writing. I take it you still think it's a greater war crime to slaughter horses than it is to slaughter "any and all" civilians, that is the revised version now, right? Well, I love horses, which is what qualifies me to comment on your post, but I can't conceive a situation where I would allow the death of any human in the stead of any horse or horses.
You can?
Were you just having a bad moment? Stop being dense, that's what is beneath you.
Joe(...)Nation
edit: added an 'it"
Gosh Mr. Hoft,
.....You seem upset. That pains me. Wouild you feel better if I apologized? Okay , I'll give it a shot. I aplogize for exposing you, I'll now drop the subject.
Just for clarity's sake - HofT is a person of the female persuasion.
Oh, and while I ain't much in favor of killin' horses or people, dropping the leading mounts of a cavalry charge was a pretty standard infantry defense against same - done correctly, with sufficient weight and timing of aimed volley fire, it would seriously disrupt the charge and scatter the following horse, lessening the impact of the charge on the infantry line. If cannon were available, and suitably situated, sustained grapeshot fire would be poured into the charging formation as well, the cannon's barrels being aimed to clear their own infantry before them while raking the ground immediately to their infantry's front with a murderous hail of hot metal. That was real rough on horse.
WWI and WWII saw perhaps the greatest slaughter of horses of any conflicts in history. In WWI, almost all logisitcs at or near the front, from dock or railhead to the trenches, were handled by horse and mule, almost all artillery was horse-towed, and artillery fire in particular devastated the draft animals. During WWII, the Germans and Russians both used horse transport in far greater number than most folks realize, as did both the Chinese and Japanese on the Asian mainland - and the horses didn't fare well at all. The German Army was as much as 1/2 unmechanized, the Russian Army, untill the last year or so of the war, was even less well equipped with motor transport. By some estimates, Europe's horse population in 1945 was less than half what it had been in 1938.
Well, i've kept my mouth shut, because of the heat of the fire in here. But i fully understand Our Helen's remarks, and Timber has made some points. Next to dogs, horses have shown the most faith to the human race, and suffered more than any others of our animal companions.
In the spring of 1918, Ludendorf launched Operation Michael to break through the Allied lines. It very nearly succeeded. General Gough's Fifth Army was blown to tatters, and the arrival of the French Fifth Corps of l'Armée du Nord seemed to late, as the 26th Saxon Division, shock troops trained in Hoffman's new tactical doctrine, were poised to take Moreuil. It was then that the Canadians arrived. Someone has elsewhere described the Canadians and the Australians as the shock troops of the empire--without them, the Great War could not have been concluded as it was.
On March 30, 1918, not ten days after the German offensive had begun, the Saxon's were entering Moreuil Wood, a real wood which hadn't been blown to splinters by the war. Beyond it lay the communications of the Allied armies, disaster loomed. The Third Cavalry Division was called to stop the Germans, but most of its troopers had been dismounted, and could not have responded in time--so the Canadians galloped off into fame by conducting the last successful cavalry charge in history. Their commander gave them individual orders by troop, and the plan was executed to perfection, with troops (about 150 men and animals) crisscrossing the wood and paralyzing the Germans who were stunned and unprepared. The Canadians captured four field artillery pieces and forty machine guns. Although many were cut down by machine gun fire, they emptied their pistols and drew their sabres, capturing their tormentors and driving the Saxons in confusion from the wood. Two Victoria Crosses and dozens of Military crosses were awarded. The Royal Canadian Dragoons, Lord Strathcona's Horse (Calgary) and the Fort Garry Horse of the Cavalry Brigade lost 300 men and 800 horses.
Horses have so frequently given "that last full measure of devotion," and i fully understand how a lover of horses would feel--even if one suggests that the choice of words were unfortunate.
Set, Makes a whole lot of sense to me; there are too many stories of people who love their pets (dogs or cats) more than they love humans. I don't make any judgements; only an observation.
Well, frankly, C.I., i personally do not consider humans as more or less valuable than the animals who share our respective fates. I know i may well be bashed for saying as much. Humans can be so vile, and bad dogs and horses were made that way by the people who have tormented them. Humans certainly can't match the long roll of devotion and self-sacrifice which dogs and horses have compiled in our service, and asking so little in return.
I understand your feeling about man vs animal.
