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Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

 
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 04:17 pm
@Arella Mae,
Hello dear AM Happy New Year.............
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 04:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
The most amusing case I can think of concerning the state getting involved with rape in marriages deal with the very first case of a man charge with raping his wife who he was living with is that after the show trial and he was found not guilt he and his now ex-wife got back together sharing a home and a bed once more.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 04:28 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
The idiocy of one is far outshined by the lunacy of the other
Kinda funny when your side of the debate keeps falling back on comedy an anecdotal evidence rape story titillation because you know that you dont have the best argument. It is a version of the old throwing sand in the face of the opposition when you dont have anything else.

But who are you trying to manipulate? Do you really think after all these pages of that dodge not working on me that it is going to work now? Do you think that it will work on whom ever is lurking...are a2k members generally that low wattage because I dont have the impression that they are after three years here..

Or maybe you dont have a point, maybe you simply cant admit defeat.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 05:36 pm
Denial is not a river in Egypt. But, it is bliss for some.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 05:57 pm
Shame on these rape feminists for wanting to make consent a clear cut issue! For shame I say, for shame! We all know if she is vomiting, uncounscious, or wearing "that" skirt she's just asking for it!Rolling EyesRolling Eyes
Quote:
Although the proper definition of ‘rape’ is itself a matter of some dispute, rape is generally understood to involve sexual penetration of a person by force and/or without that person's consent. Rape is committed overwhelmingly by men and boys, usually against women and girls, and sometimes against other men and boys. (For the most part, this entry will assume male perpetrators and female victims.)

2.1 Consent

Both social and legal understandings of rape are typically based at least partly on the notion of consent. (Many laws also include a force requirement, about which more below.) To consent to something is to reverse a prima facie supposition about what may and may not be done. In most contexts, there is a standing presumption that one does not have access to and may not make use of another's body, property, personal information, or other elements of his or her personal domain. This presumption is reversed, however, when (and for as long as) the other consents to such access. Consent thus alters the structure of rights and obligations between two or more parties.

Assuming for the moment that, in sexual encounters, rape exists where consent is lacking, the question then becomes what counts as consent. Women's sexual consent has in many instances been understood quite expansively, as simply the absence of refusal or resistance; feminists have criticized this approach on the grounds that, among its other untoward implications, it regards even unconscious women as consenting (MacKinnon 1989b, 340; Archard 1998, 85). Furthermore, it has too often been assumed that a woman's appearance, attire, status, location, prior sexual history, or relationship to the man in question either function as stand-ins for consent (that is, as “asking for it”) or render her consent irrelevant or unnecessary. A vital task on the feminist agenda has been to challenge and discredit such ideas—to deny that what a woman wears, where she goes and with whom, or what sexual choices she has made in the past have any relevance to whether she should be seen as having consented to sex on a particular occasion.

Consent in general may be understood as either attitudinal or performative (Kazan 1998). Attitudinal accounts see consent as a mental state of affirmation or willingness, while performative accounts see it as a certain kind of action or utterance (for instance, saying “yes” or nodding). Because the kinds of behaviors mentioned above (such as wearing revealing clothes, going somewhere alone with a man, or engaging in heavy petting) have often been claimed by perpetrators to constitute evidence that a woman was in a mental state of willingness to have intercourse, feminists have often rejected attitudinal accounts in favor of performative ones; with a performative account, in contrast, a defendant can be challenged to articulate exactly what the woman said or did that constituted her consent to intercourse. An added advantage of a performative account is that it suggests that sexual consent is not a woman's implied default state, but rather must be actively and affirmatively granted. Again, this is in contrast to traditional patriarchal views, which often assumed that unless a woman physically resisted—again, even “to the utmost”—a man's attempt to have intercourse, she was consenting (or at least he was justified in proceeding on that assumption).

One limitation of a purely performative account of consent is that it does not take into account the context in which the relevant behavior or utterance occurs. For instance, if a woman says “yes” or even feigns sexual enthusiasm in order to keep a knife-wielding attacker from becoming angry and hurting or killing her, it would be absurd to regard her behavior or utterance as consent (or at least as meaningful consent). The question is what other contextual constraints and pressures may also undermine the validity of a woman's (apparent) consent. To put the point another way, having granted that “no” always means no, we must recognize that, in some cases, “yes” also means no. There are many kinds of explicit and implicit threats that render a woman's consent to sex less than meaningful: the man may threaten to sue for custody of their children, to derail her green card application, to evict her, or simply to sulk and make her life miserable for days should she refuse to have sex. Which (if any) such nonviolent coercive pressures should be regarded as rape, either morally or legally, is a matter of some controversy (Schulhofer 1998; Burgess-Jackson 1996, 91-106).

The question is especially important from a feminist point of view, since it is to be expected that in a patriarchal society men frequently hold positions of social, legal, and/or institutional power over women and are thus positioned to withhold important benefits from women who refuse them sexual access, in addition to threatening harms and penalties. Viewing at least certain kinds of nonviolent coercive pressures as incompatible with meaningful consent may yield the conclusion that some quid pro quo sexual harassment is also rape (Falk 1998). Furthermore, some radical feminists' description of prostitution as “commercial sexual violence” (Jeffreys 1997) reflects an expansive understanding of the economic and other coercive pressures that often compel women's consent to sexual acts in prostitution (even where physical violence does not play a role).


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-rape/#Con
BillRM
 
  -3  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:03 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
We all know if she is vomiting,


By the way AM does this work in reverse if a man after having sex pass out and or vomit from drinking does that mean that his female partner had rape him?

And if not why the hell not AM!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:13 pm
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
The question is what other contextual constraints and pressures may also undermine the validity of a woman's (apparent) consent. To put the point another way, having granted that “no” always means no, we must recognize that, in some cases, “yes” also means no.BULLSHIT There are many kinds of explicit and implicit threats that render a woman's consent to sex less than meaningful: the man may threaten to sue for custody of their children, to derail her green card application, to evict her, or simply to sulk and make her life miserable for days should she refuse to have sex. Which (if any) such nonviolent coercive pressures should be regarded as rape, either morally or legally, is a matter of some controversy (Schulhofer 1998; Burgess-Jackson 1996, 91-106
THe answer is simple, if the individual man thinks that he has consent because he has not anything wrong (not held a gun to her head, pinned her down, tied her up, forced drugs or drink into her) and she yes and/or acts enthusiastic then he is not only not guilty of any crime but he has done nothing wrong. He can not climb into her head, and it is inhumain to expect him to base his actions upon what is in her head unexpressed.

A good example of the problem with the feminist theory is that I require sex in marriage, it is one of my conditions, a marriage without sex is not a worthwhile marriage in my books. My wife may take this as a threat should she ever inform me of her decision that the sex is over and then I re-inform her that sex is a condition of staying married, and the feminists will certainly support her on this, but her right to be free from pressure competes with my right to be in the type of marriage that I desire. The feminists would deny me my rights so far as to completely ignore them. Certainly this can not stand, as feminist theory violates the core principles of a free and just democratic society.
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
I love the idea that if you tell a girlfriend that if she does not end her boycott of having sex with you she can damn well find somewhere else to live and she therefore end her boycott you had rape her!!!!!!!!!!!

Putting non-physical pressure on a woman for sex is now rape how silly can you get?

If you do not agree to sex with me I will have sex with Mary-Ann instead would be rape?

If we do not once more start having sex I will file for divorce would be rape?

Turning the whole idea of rape into a silly joke is not going to be helpful to men or women.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:26 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Putting non-physical pressure on a woman for sex is now rape how silly can you get?

Oh, I certainly think that the rape feminists can get more silly if they are not stopped....
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:29 pm
firefly, I am of the mind that IF a man has to use any pressure to get a woman to have sex with her he could care less about her. It is all about him and what he wants. A man that has to pressure a woman in any way at all is not a man but an animal IMO.
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:37 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Oh, I certainly think that the rape feminists can get more silly if they are not stopped....


How in the hell can you get any more silly then that?

Lord everytime I had pressure my wife for sex when she is not completely in the mood is a case of my raping her!

Perhaps requiring you to have a lied detector test done to be sure that she really really wish to have sex with you of her own free will?

Legal consent is given under all kind of pressures over all kind of matters every second of the day and night and as long as you are not holding a gun at someone head or threatening others illegal acts the consent is valid.
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:46 pm
@Arella Mae,
So I do not care for my wife because sometimes I had whine a little to have sex with her?

Hell I know a female friend that got so damn tired of not having sex with her husband that it was a main reason for divorcing him so this does work both ways.

Most relationships are give and take and I had been known to had been pressure by her from time to time over all kind of matters.

Is sex with your mate all that different from all the others desires that couples pressures each others to meet and if so why is it so AM?

BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 06:56 pm
@BillRM,
An interesting footnote on pressure and sex as a young man I were very slow to try to start a sexual relationship with a young lady trying to be a gentleman and more then once after the start of that sexual relationship the lady had told me she was beginning to have concerns about me for not pressuring her for sex sooner.
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hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 07:01 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Lord everytime I had pressure my wife for sex when she is not completely in the mood is a case of my raping her!
Yes, you both must be enthusiastically wanting sex at exactly the same time or else the consent is not valid. If in the future you want sex and if she is not crazy about it but says yes to shut you up or because she feels obligated or for what ever reason then her consent is not valid. You my friend will have just raped your wife, again. You were supposed to know that she said yes and indicated yes by her actions but somewhere in her head she was either conflicted or did not want to do it. How you where supposed to know I have no idea, and how we are expected to be sure three hours or three months later when she decides to run your ass into the state for punishment that what she was thinking at that moment is what she now claims that she was actually thinking at that moment I have no idea either...I mean after all, she has already lied to you, she says, so how do we think she is now telling the truth??!! Dont ask to polygraph her either, the rape feminists have gone through Washington to make it illegal to test her words against her emotions in every state.

You I imagine are either laughing or crying at this point, but you will find if you look rape feminist websites right now "teaching"(indoctrinating) this position

Are you beginning to see why there is no reasonable conclusion other than that the rape feminists wish for as little sex with men to be happening as possible?? The hoops that they want us to jump through in order to complete a lawful sex act are extreme by any standards of historical human sexuality. How often do any two humans want exactly the same thing at the same time??
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 07:21 pm
@firefly,
I believe you know that my husband has narcisisstic personality disorder? It is not easy sometimes for him to see other's needs. But one thing I can tell you about him is anytime I did not feel well or was too tired or simply did not feel like making love, he never tried to change my mind. I trust him completely and he trusts me completely. He never takes my not being in the mood as personal rejection. I don't take it as personal rejection when he's not in the mood either. To me, that makes him more of a man than about anyone I know.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 08:06 pm
OMG, the feminsits are nuts...according to them there is no informed consent unless both parties know what it will be like to experinece what they are agreeing to do. That pretty much makes it impossible to ever be sexual,,,in fact it does because we dont order sex like we are at McDonalds, we never really know how it will turn out.

Quote:
Yet a strong element of the feminist argument against surrogacy is the women can not give informed consent until they have had the experience of giving birth, Robert Arentstien, an attorney for Mary Beth Whitehead, argued in Congressional Testimony that "pre-birth or at birth termination is a termination without informed consent. I use the words informed consent to mean to mean full understanding of the of the personal psychological consequences at the time of surrender of the child. The feminist amicus brief in the baby M case made a similar argument


page 1096 Applications of feminist legal theory to women's lives: sex, violence, work ... By D. Kelly Weisberg

That right there is why Firefly refuses to define consent, because she knows damn well what a black hole consent theory is once we get down to talking about details in real life, and the ramifications of the guidelines that the feminists are trying to ram down our throat through regulation from Washington and lawmaking in the State Capitals. When she refuses to define consent she makes everything she says gobbly gook, though of course it does go down easy for the simple minded.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 08:27 pm
@Arella Mae,
So you hardly ever had sex AM as the desire to have sex have to match not only the time but the level of desire in a perfect manner for it to be ok with you?

Yes, it would indeed be ungentlemanly to pressure my wife for sex if she was not feeling well or sick or in pain however if she just happen not be completely in the mood a little bit of gentle pressure is no different then her placing such pressures on me to satisfy her desires when I am not in the mood to go out to dinner or see a movie or work on the car or……
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 08:30 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
So you hardly ever had sex AM as the desire to have sex have to match not only the time but the level of desire in a perfect manner for it to be ok with you?

We know that when AM wants to keep the foreplay going but hubby wants to get down to the main course that they stop everything right? After all, there is no longer agreement, per consent theory they must now stop until and unless they come back to agreement. This more than likely will kill the mood for both of them and so they will not do anything more, but it is not like the designers of our sex laws give a **** about that.
BillRM
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 09:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye what is even more remarkable is the idea that consent to have sex is not valid if any pressure of any kind and in any manner is placed on the lady in question.

Human’s relationships in all aspects do not work that way.

Pressure and counter pressures of one kind or another is always in play in any and all relationships, be that relationship between a parent and a child, a employer and his or her employees, friends or mated couples.

Contracts and other legal agreements had never needed to be pressure free to be valid.

If you wish to rent my home you will agree to my terms and sign the rental agreement, if you wish to work for me you will sign this non-compete clause and on and on and on we go.

This idea that consent to having sexual intercourse have to be pressure free in all regards to be valid is one hundred percent crazy.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Jan, 2011 09:10 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Hawkeye what is even more remarkable is the idea that consent to have sex is not valid if any pressure of any kind and in any manner is placed on the lady in question.

Human’s relationships in all aspects do not work that way


Yes, but you miss the best part Bill....the pressure does not need to come from the man she is with, he does not even need to be aware that she feels pressure, all that counts is that it is decided (after the fact of course) that

1) she felt pressure to have sex, or the exact type of sex that they did

and

2) that the man should have known her mind, even when she never said a thing and never made a move to communicate to him her mind!!!

I find this to be a remarkable expectation....we men must be GODS according to the feminists!......


















maybe not......maybe it is that no matter what goes wrong or who caused it to go wrong it is the man's fault according to the feminists....
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