Roman Polanski free

@manored,

Quote:

Justice is about equal treatment

You and JTT are both wrong, it is about fairness to the individual and the collective, which takes into consideration the contribution made and likely to be made in the future to the greater good by the individual under review. Aristotl's view held up until it was overrun by the democratic creed of equality, but before then a great deal of inequality was considered just and necessary. I believe in democracy as much as the other members of my church, i am simply arguing that was have taken this concept of equality too far, it has now become a destroyer of the good life.

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@manored,

manored wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:

I will agree I don't have much patience when it comes to people defending (in any way) a man that raped a child. I don't think anyone should have patience for that.
So you believe an act can be horrible enough to be unforgivable?

Ah, well.

This discussion has never been about forgiveness. It has been about whether or not someone that has committed a crime years ago should pay the penalty for the crime even though he has (that anyone knows of) not committed any further crimes. At least, that's what I have been focusing on.

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Hawkeye, point out what in that article supports that silly notion you just invented.

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@hawkeye10,

May I ask what church you attend? If you do not wish to answer I would understand.

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@Arella Mae,

I was referring the the church of democracy, because our bias and creed are just a strong now as they ever where under the church, only now as then we are not self aware enough to see this.

Personally, I am Zen, though never formally which means according to Zen I should not be claiming to be thus. My wife and kids are Catholic, and I have attended mass regularly over the years.

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@hawkeye10,

Thank you. I do appreciate you answering.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

This discussion has never been about forgiveness. It has been about whether or not someone that has committed a crime years ago should pay the penalty for the crime even though he has (that anyone knows of) not committed any further crimes. At least, that's what I have been focusing on.

And you believe that has nothing to do with forgiveness? I think it obviously does.

You said you believe that people should have no patience with people who defend child rapists in any way. Well, children rapists were once children themselves, children whom society failed to raise properly. Actually, a sizable number of child abusers were abused themselves then they were kids. Nobody can be blamed for being what they are, if what they are is not a good thing, that is a trajedy, not an evil act.

That is about the root of my opinion on this matter. I only remembered it now, I often forget the path I followed after reaching a conclusion.

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Justice is about equal treatment
You and JTT are both wrong, it is about fairness to the individual and the collective, which takes into consideration the contribution made and likely to be made in the future to the greater good by the individual under review. Aristotl's view held up until it was overrun by the democratic creed of equality, but before then a great deal of inequality was considered just and necessary. I believe in democracy as much as the other members of my church, i am simply arguing that was have taken this concept of equality too far, it has now become a destroyer of the good life.

Perhaps that was the original meaning of the word, and perhaps it still is, but its not how it is used, as far as I can tell.

1 Reply

@manored,

manored wrote:

Arella Mae wrote:

This discussion has never been about forgiveness. It has been about whether or not someone that has committed a crime years ago should pay the penalty for the crime even though he has (that anyone knows of) not committed any further crimes. At least, that's what I have been focusing on.

And you believe that has nothing to do with forgiveness? I think it obviously does.

You said you believe that people should have no patience with people who defend child rapists in any way. Well, children rapists were once children themselves, children whom society failed to raise properly. Actually, a sizable number of child abusers were abused themselves then they were kids. Nobody can be blamed for being what they are, if what they are is not a good thing, that is a trajedy, not an evil act.

Oh I see. Someone gets raped as a child, grows up and rapes someone else and it's not their fault? If that isn't the biggest load of dung! There comes a time when we have to grow up and take responsibility for our lives. We have a choice when things happen to us: 1) we can become just like the ones that hurts us; or 2) we can overcome and be something better.

Ted Bundy killed how many women? The Green River Killer? Pedophiles, child rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. Not their fault? What planet do you live on?

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@Arella Mae,

Quote:

Ted Bundy killed how many women? The Green River Killer? Pedophiles, child rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. Not their fault? What planet do you live on

When a disturbed person hurts someone they are guilty, but so are the rest of us. The individual is one of us, and no matter what factors caused them to turn out the way they did we did not notice the problem, we did not get them the help they needed in time. I certainly think that a lot of this hysteria about sexual evil doers is a cover, it is an emotional response of outward anger that covers an unacknowledged hunch/fear that the society is broken. We cant face our own culpability, so we make it all about the individuals, or we rationalize that our ancestors were worse even though we don't really know that.

But here is the thing, if a rape takes place and we toss the monster away for the rest of his life we have not been successful. Success would have been the rape never having taken place at all. I dont think we get to success with stern daddy tv commercials and cops and heavy penalties after the fact....this is wrapped up in sex and power and passions, the brain is never fully in charge. I think that just as we have always made sure that soldiers and other groups of men had prostitutes available to take the edge off so that they could control themselves the rest of the time we need to allow people some space to play out their dark sides and to play with erotic power. I think that we need to allow consenting adults to do what they want so long as one of them does not call the cops. I think that we need to have safe places for victims and abusers to go for help without the near certainty that the state will be called and will proceed to take apart their lives in a quest to help the victim and get blood from the abuser.

I think we need to grow up, and put down this feminist driven Puritanism which is both getting in the way of a good time, but is also is getting in the way of getting help to those who need it before they do damage.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Quote:

Oh I see. Someone gets raped as a child, grows up and rapes someone else and it's not their fault? If that isn't the biggest load of dung! There comes a time when we have to grow up and take responsibility for our lives. We have a choice when things happen to us: 1) we can become just like the ones that hurts us; or 2) we can overcome and be something better.

Intellectually, I agree with this. But I also know that when you have childhood abuse mixed in with certain physiological tendencies and environmental deprivation - it's a whole lot easier said than done.

Thursday I was walking through the car park to go to my job at the prison. It was visiting day for a program called 'Fathers Inside' in which fathers who are in prison for whatever reason are taught parenting skills. A woman was walking with two young children and I assume her husband's brother or friend, anyway a man, bringing her children to see their father. One of the little boys was about two years old. He broke away from the guy and walked out into the middle of the car park - as little children will do. Nothing out of the ordinary - there weren't even any cars coming to make it a particularly dangerous situation.

This guy raised his hand to the kid, then put it down when he saw me looking, but he yanked the boy by the arm and said, 'You're a nasty, evil little bastard' to this two year old child.

I was telling the guys in the class about it later and one of them said, 'Book that kid a cell right now - it'll be fifteen or twenty years - but he'll be in here - mark my words.'

I think it takes an unusually strong person to overcome a lifetime of abuse.
The other thing these guys tell me is that where they grew up it was either 'Do or have it done to you'.
I don't know what the answer is.

*Edited to say - but Roman Polanski doesn't have this excuse - he's just a nasty, evil rapist - plain and simple.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Oh I see. Someone gets raped as a child, grows up and rapes someone else and it's not their fault? If that isn't the biggest load of dung! There comes a time when we have to grow up and take responsibility for our lives. We have a choice when things happen to us: 1) we can become just like the ones that hurts us; or 2) we can overcome and be something better.

Ted Bundy killed how many women? The Green River Killer? Pedophiles, child rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. Not their fault? What planet do you live on?

And what is it to "grow up"? Do you think children magically transform into someone else then they reach a certain age? No. A murderous child will be a murderous adult. People do not have a choice between good and evil, they simply become either way. Actually, I dont like these concepts, that is, "good" and "evil", because they are cheap oversimplifications of life.

Obviously criminals need to be punished or re-educated in some way, but there is no reason to hold hate or resentment, no matter how grave the crime. To hate someone for what they are is to hate human nature itself: The only thing, besides one's experiences in life, that define what they are is their initial state, that is, what they were born like. Too hate humans is to hate the fact humans can become something we hate.

Hate is the worse emotion I know. It does nothing but harm both the hater and the hater. Its odd to say this, but I hate then I feel hate because it hurts me deeply.

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Ted Bundy killed how many women? The Green River Killer? Pedophiles, child rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. Not their fault? What planet do you live on
When a disturbed person hurts someone they are guilty, but so are the rest of us. The individual is one of us, and no matter what factors caused them to turn out the way they did we did not notice the problem, we did not get them the help they needed in time. I certainly think that a lot of this hysteria about sexual evil doers is a cover, it is an emotional response of outward anger that covers an unacknowledged hunch/fear that the society is broken. We cant face our own culpability, so we make it all about the individuals, or we rationalize that our ancestors were worse even though we don't really know that.

I agree with this.

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@manored,

There is always a choice

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@Intrepid,

Quote:

There is always a choice

That there is, Intrepid.

What about men who supported, trained and encouraged proxies in the raping, the torture and the murder of children?

Should these particular men be held to the same standard of justice that you believe applies to Roman Polanski?

1 Reply

@JTT,

Maybe you should start a thread on that. You can provide the evidence that these proxies were specifically trained for the direct reasons that you give here. Then a discussion can take place on that remotely related, but different thread.

1 Reply

@Intrepid,

Let's try this another way, to make it easier for you to always make that choice.

If there were men who supported, trained and encouraged proxies in the raping, the torture and the murder of children, should these particular men be held to the same standard of justice that you believe applies to Roman Polanski?

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@JTT,

Quote:

should these particular men be held to the same standard of justice that you believe applies to Roman Polanski?

If their trials had the same outcome and they fled from justice as Polanski did. Yes, it would be the same as Polanski.

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@JTT,

I know you're not asking me, but I would answer that if it were able to be proven (or proved) , I would answer an unqualified YES!

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

Quote:

it is about fairness to the individual and the collective, which takes into consideration the contribution made and likely to be made in the future to the greater good by the individual under review

You've just made a great argument for the Nazis and their contributions to Germany. The only thing that they might be faulted for under your "guidelines for the moral and ethical standards for leaders" is that they just extended themselves a bit too far.

Quote:

Aristotl's view held up until it was overrun by the democratic creed of equality, but before then a great deal of inequality was considered just and necessary.

You still haven't explained how that article, in any way shape or form, explains or supports your cockamamie notion.

Quote:

I believe in democracy as much as the other members of my church, i am simply arguing that was have taken this concept of equality too far, it has now become a destroyer of the good life.

Quite the contradiction, in the course of two sentences. It must be troublesome getting through the day having a brain that ejects one thought and sticks in a contradictory one immediately after.

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@aidan,

aidan wrote:

I know you're not asking me, but I would answer that if it were able to be proven (or proved) , I would answer an unqualified YES!

I am the same and even asked for the proof. Of course, JTT did not provide it. The reason for my response in the manner it was. Same old song over and over from JTT. Getting real stale real quick.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Ted Bundy killed how many women? The Green River Killer? Pedophiles, child rapists, murderers, thieves, etc. Not their fault? What planet do you live on
When a disturbed person hurts someone they are guilty, but so are the rest of us. The individual is one of us, and no matter what factors caused them to turn out the way they did we did not notice the problem, we did not get them the help they needed in time. I certainly think that a lot of this hysteria about sexual evil doers is a cover, it is an emotional response of outward anger that covers an unacknowledged hunch/fear that the society is broken. We cant face our own culpability, so we make it all about the individuals, or we rationalize that our ancestors were worse even though we don't really know that.

But here is the thing, if a rape takes place and we toss the monster away for the rest of his life we have not been successful. Success would have been the rape never having taken place at all. I dont think we get to success with stern daddy tv commercials and cops and heavy penalties after the fact....this is wrapped up in sex and power and passions, the brain is never fully in charge. I think that just as we have always made sure that soldiers and other groups of men had prostitutes available to take the edge off so that they could control themselves the rest of the time we need to allow people some space to play out their dark sides and to play with erotic power. I think that we need to allow consenting adults to do what they want so long as one of them does not call the cops. I think that we need to have safe places for victims and abusers to go for help without the near certainty that the state will be called and will proceed to take apart their lives in a quest to help the victim and get blood from the abuser.

I think we need to grow up, and put down this feminist driven Puritanism which is both getting in the way of a good time, but is also is getting in the way of getting help to those who need it before they do damage.

Like I said, WHAT PLANET DO YOU LIVE ON?

I am not responsible for a single thing Ted Bundy did. I am not responsible for a single thing Hitler did either. I'm not responsible for Gunga Din! I wasn't even born when some of that happened so no way are you throwing responsibility on me for that. And I am certainly not responsible for the way you think! (Not that you said I was-only making a point with that.)

You will be grown up when you realize no matter what happens in this life to you, the RESPONSIBILITY of how you handle it is YOURS and no one else's. There is EVIL in this world. Pure unadultered, sick, twisted, evil. Making mistakes in life and making some bad choices are one thing. EVIL is a dragon of a whole nother color.

No one is talking about getting blood from an abuser, which I take you to mean revenge? Punishments for crimes are meant to be deterrents from anyone commiting the crimes. We are talking about justice. Let me give you a small scenario and see what you think okay? Please bear with me.

Suppose you come home one day and your whole family has been killed. The perpetrator is standing right there! He is finishing off one of your children! You catch him. You call the police. He is tried and you are in the courtroom.

He has drawn a very loving and forgiving Judge. During the trial, you find out he has done this crime before. Not only that, he has been in front of the same judge for that crime. This loving and forgiving judge believes the perpetrator is sorry and says "I am a kind and loving judge. I will set you free."

hawkeye, where is the justice for you? For your family? For society? We, as humans, must be held accountable for our actions. If we are not, then we can do whatever we want whenever we want. The laws are not made for the the ones that obey the law. It was made for those that don't so the ones that don't break the law can be protected. Our criminal justice system has many, many flaws I will agree but the type of society you are adovacting here would soon have all the law obeying people raped and killed by the lawless ones. You can't see that?

You post as if there are NO safe places for victims. Where have you been? Ever googled how many homeless shelters, abuse shelters, halflway houses, support groups, etc., are out there? I don't see this country ignoring abuse. I see it doing it's best to try to cope with and do what they can about it. BUT in the final analysis of a person's life is it was THEIR life. They make choices. Do not blame society because some people decided to do wrong and make a habit out of it.

1 Reply

Roman Polanski free

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