The rise and fall of the USA

I fully agree as I have for about the past 5 posts (please don't hold me to this as I have not in all actuality counted them).

Thanks Craven I guess what you are saying is the it depends on was the meaning of is, is!

I don't see where anyone here has actually gone over the line in demeanor especially in a political discussion but in reading over it I still perceive a lot of anger (it's for the individual to decide if it is irrational fear that is causing the anger). Most of it is a reaction to stating an argument with a dogmatic position that is inviting an equal and opposite negative discourse. So what can one expect? I'm personally not inclined to participate in a "discussion" where the parameters are constricted and starts off by drawing angry one-liners -- let sleeping dogs lie, in other words. My only suggestion is to try and keep the anger more tempered and if you want to rant, do it in PM's where we all can't see an accepted form of debate interupted with critical slashings. If one want's to leave blood in the arena, they're likely to drive off the audience. Only suggestions and my own personal opinion so please take it as the only meaning of this post.

The issue we have gotten side-tracked onto here is, I think, of fundamental importance to our community. It is a question regarding what we are trying to achieve in discussing social policies and how might we best achieve it. We have two options (I'm concentrating, for clarity).

We can follow the example of Ann Coulter or James Carville and (KNOWING we are right) shout at the top of our voices, trade insults and innuendo, and use any trick in the book no matter how dirty to 'win'. This is a style of discourse common on abuzz and even in political commentary shows on TV (Crossfire). Listening, learning, careful thought and cautious speech aren't particularly required for this style. Humility is quite unnecessary, and is actually seen as disadvantageous.

The second option is Socratic. We begin with the premise that we think X is so, but we acknowledge that there is much we don't know and that therefore, we might be wrong. This option entails more work. It entails that we actually listen carefully, that we don't shoot from the hip (others, listening carefully, will catch us up on our carelessness), that we don't generalize (Americans think blah), that we attend to the argument being made and don't bypass it with a (logically irrelevant) attack against the speaker because he is a homosexual or a Republican. We assume the other our equal and we speak with civility to him/her.

I vote for option two. Regardless of what might be happening elsewhere, why not strive for a debate style that is of a higher calibre than what might be common? It's a style far more likely to yield learning than the other.

posting this link here too....esquire article on inner working of white house under Rove... http://ronsuskind.com/writing/esquire/esq_rove_0103.html

Totally agree with you, blatham. Theatrical historonics are displayed on TV pundit shows daily trying to make a cut and dried case for their side. I agree that it's a hoot to watch both sides cancel one another out because the actually haven't made a point on any issue, they've just declared their ideology as being etched in stone. Ideology and politics actually don't mix that well -- pragmatism is more often thrown out the window in pursuit of the end justifies the means. As to whether the U.S. is on a decline, our history is a pretty rocky road and we've had more than our share of ineffectual leaders and statesmen. Raving about it isn't going to produce any better result than whining about it.

That would be me, high calibre--i'm truly big bore . . .

Setanta
Took me just a minute...but, ought we to verify through a query to that someone who knows?

I have not read through your whole thread, just the question, so I may be missing something, but I just wanted to say in response to the original question:

After thinking about rises and falls for awhile, and our American experience, I think that the fall begins to occur long before it is apparent, and it is initiated when the people who run the government are no longer really taking care of the government, when special interest considerations are paramount, when money is being siphoned off, when instead of being at the business of government, cloak and dagger and dirty tricks are employed by the members of government.

After reading a post by Original Nan on Abuzz regarding the Home Security Bill and Eli Lily, there is no doubt in my mind that we are much farther down the road of disintegration than we suspect.

For a view of that column: Arianna Online: "Finding the Answer to Washington's Hottest Whodunit"

US or them
The people of the Middle Eastern countries have had enough of US meddling in the region. I predict an escalation in conflict over the oil resources of that region and a complete breakdown in oil supply to the West. Oil to America is what alchohol is to an alchoholic.
What scares me is the prospect of an alchoholic with no booze to calm that awaful hangover.

fall of usa
the usa's goverment was based on the roman goverment, rome had senates like the usa and had 3 dfferent branches both all called the same eg judical branch and even thoe rome was beter for europe and with rome the rest of europe was a much beter place to live, if it wasnt for rome some of the great european cities wouldnt of been built like london or paris. so the world is probaly a beter place with the usa but like rome it has enemies and rome got extreamly confident with its self just like the usa and even thoe europe was beter with rome it didnt stop the germanic tribes invading rome and destroying it, so who will be the usa's germanic tribes the only thing different is that europe didnt have another place with the same wisdom and strenght as rome were today the world does have another place, THE EUROPEAN UNION

Well, Many different people have their thoughts, opinions, beliefs... I myself never thought that the usa would ever fall, thats how strong this nation is. In truth, the only thing that can bring down the usa is a religous power coming full force. Thats how strong this nation is, people say we're just like the Roman Empire... in a way we are, but in ways we are not. I myself like i said before believed the usa would never fall. And it won't.

Think for a minute, if you die, will a nation fall? Nearly 3000 people died in 9/11 so why would a nuke do anything else but kill over 50 million people in New York, Connecticut and New Jersey? I know that sounds harsh but really, would that make America drop to her knees? To many people the answer is yes, but to me it is no. I wish it were yes, but I've done research about the usa and nuclear weapons and taco sauce... and i found out a very... very... VERY chilling fact about the usa.

I dunno if the FBI will break down my door for saying it but google this: US concentration camps. Now the usa has over 600 of these ... ok, why be scared? they could be better prisons for captured terrorists! This is probably what they want you to think. Now the Consitution will protect us from these camps!!!

No. The Consitution has so many amendments added to it, all congress has to do is declare Martial Law and !POW! We all live in these places. How will the usa declare Martial Law? When? To answer both these questions, nuclear attack.

Well, we will get help from other nations in this period of American Holocaust right? Well, if the usa can smush Iraq in a matter of weeks, AND Israel is America's Strongest Ally, well... lets just say once this happens, we can all expect to die.

Well back to the topic question, my answer is no, the usa will not fall.

The fall began 8 years ago when we elected a monkey into the white house. When we elect McKain, it will seal the deal. Plain and simple.

Hmm well i think that the u.s.a will fall soon like all the mass murder nations that succeded it but we must say that the u.s have the best record in killing innocent , stealing others property and weeping native american from their own land u.s.a=bullshit->history trash

Its happening !!!!!!!!!!!!!! AMERICA IS GONE FOR THE GOOD OF THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Throughout history mankind have always been explorers and inventors. Consider the path of evolution, we first moved out of Africa because of lack of resources, Arabia, Persia, Israel, etc namely The Middle East had lot of resources to become superpowers. Later came India, and then Greece, China, Rome, France, Britain, Germany, Russia, America.....what next ? none, because all the land on this Planet is consumed. History says that as resources deplete superpowers collapse, America is no exception.

Times has gone gentleman. The USA at that time was a moral nation, a christian nation based on God of Bible, His 10 commandments and His Christ.
But no more. That USA, the christian USA is dead. The present USA do not need God, Christ and Bible. All are frowned upon. Moral fiber of nation is torn apart.
Families are broken. Adulatory is so common. God's Law is a matter of joke. Instead homo sex, feminine liberation, atheism and free sex is actively promoted. What hope is left now. Unless we repent and turn back to the God of our forefathers?

Yea, cause repenting is gonna make everything all better.....

We will do what we feel we need to in order to maintain the world's approval, we may be a super power...but many times we are just a super whimp for the way we feel we need to appologize for everything we do...It's our greatest downfall (our need to gain the world's approval) and I think that (more than any other reason) will destroy America.

just let DC fall its corrupt and all of our appointments are thieves the minute they arrive in DC let the states take back the power DC has taken from them if you don't like one States laws go somewhere else this way people of the same thinking will live around each other and we will have no need to compromise in the current system nobody gets what they want LET DC FALL senior chief US NAVY retired I've witnessed DC's waste and fraud most my life and am will to give up my pension for my children's future

If it does, not soon. The Romans lasted 1000 years until the official fall of Rome itself, and 2000 years until the fall of the Roman empire and Roman life style. The last Emperor of Rome fell in 476 but there was still an eastern emperor. But the people lived on and called themselves Romans until the 1400s. If a semi-ancient civilization could last that long, we could last longer. There were many other long-lasting civilizations, such as india and china. But if we get into a little scrape with Russia, we are done for. They dont need troops, the got nukes. So unless we can work something out, both would probably destroy each other; plus the whole world, and the rest that lived on would start over from some point, if there are any survivors, let alone life itself. The book "the Hunger Games" portrays this pretty well, when people made a new country after a nuclear war, perhaps russia and the us, since north america was mentioned