92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 07:54 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;47072 wrote:
I can assure you people DO NOT saw-off the end of a shotgun for "home defence", and yes handguns are concealable, but unlike sawed-off shotguns handguns may be used for self-defence and target practice.


So can short barrelled shotguns, just because YOU don't, doesn't mean that no one does.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 08:08 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;47074 wrote:
So can short barrelled shotguns, just because YOU don't, doesn't mean that no one does.


it only takes a look at statistics...

also people don't use sawed-off shotguns for target pratice simply because sawing off the barrel greatly reduces the accuratcy, not something you want when target practicing!
Drakej
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 08:19 pm
@Freeman15,
92 and I have both mentioned reasons why a SBS is a handy thing to have. When I buy my Remington 870 it will have the shortest length barrel legally possible along with the stock being as short as legally possible, why? Because I am not bird hunting with it, nor big game hunting with it. I will use it for home defense exclusively. If I had the cash to have it chopped by a legit gunsmith I probably would. I am not talking about the ol side by side you see in the westerns with a 6 inch barrel. I know a few guys that own firearms they don't even shoot, they bought them simply because they wanted them. There should not be a reason or need for someone to own any thing. Look at people that collect cars, stamps, coins. You can only drive one car, your tongue gets tired and dry after licking all of those tamps and the strippers don't like it when you throw your coins at them.
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 08:33 pm
@Freeman15,
I'm hitting the gun-range tomorrow, big time. Guns, baby, guns.
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 08:36 pm
@Drakej,
Drakej;47077 wrote:
92 and I have both mentioned reasons why a SBS is a handy thing to have. When I buy my Remington 870 it will have the shortest length barrel legally possible along with the stock being as short as legally possible,


I'm talking about sawed-off shotguns NOT legal short barreled shotguns!
0 Replies
 
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 10:11 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;47076 wrote:
it only takes a look at statistics...

also people don't use sawed-off shotguns for target pratice simply because sawing off the barrel greatly reduces the accuratcy, not something you want when target practicing!


Politics, social issues, we can debate, firearms? Firearms laws? Don't even try. I'd like you to try showing me statistics showing how often short barrel shotguns are used in crimes versus for home defense.

A shotgun is not a distance weapon, people don't go paper punching even with 20+ inch barrels. Shorter barrels increase the spread at a shorter distance causing more damage hence, better for home defense. If you want to talk about statistics here's one, handguns are THE most common firearm used in crimes, not short barrelled shotguns, assault rifles, or machine guns.

Quote:
I'm talking about sawed-off shotguns NOT legal short barreled shotguns!


So, you are talking about criminal intent, not the weapon because a sawedoff shotgun IS a short barrelled shotgun, the difference between it being legal, or illegal is the owner.
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Nov, 2007 10:23 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;47095 wrote:

A shotgun is not a distance weapon, people don't go paper punching even with 20+ inch barrels. Shorter barrels increase the spread at a shorter distance causing more damage hence, better for home defense.


Not really, you don't have to be real accurate with a gun to stop a criminal in your home, and that is really the only drawback a handgun has also a handgun is much more maneuverable than even a short-barrel shotgun, plus the shotgun has a wide blast which will dammage your home, unlike a handgun which will only cause minimal dammage to your home

Quote:

If you want to talk about statistics here's one, handguns are THE most common firearm used in crimes, not short barrelled shotguns, assault rifles, or machine guns.


yeah, but the only purpose for owning a sawed-off shot gun is to conceal it, there is no legal purpose for owning a sawed-off shotgun

Quote:

So, you are talking about criminal intent, not the weapon because a sawedoff shotgun IS a short barrelled shotgun, the difference between it being legal, or illegal is the owner.


Not the only difference! A sawed-off shotgun typically has a much shorter barrel than even the shortest legal shotgun
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 12:27 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;47097 wrote:
Not really, you don't have to be real accurate with a gun to stop a criminal in your home, and that is really the only drawback a handgun has also a handgun is much more maneuverable than even a short-barrel shotgun, plus the shotgun has a wide blast which will dammage your home, unlike a handgun which will only cause minimal dammage to your home


Ever been in the situation? Damaging your drapes is the last thing on your mind when confronted with an armed threat in your home. There is nothing more, or less manuverable between a SBS and a handgun if one is proficient with either. A point and click shotty can make the difference between living and dying, not having to aim is a good thing in high stress situations. You lose things like fine motor skills, and something as simple as flipping off the safety can be a death sentence.

Quote:
yeah, but the only purpose for owning a sawed-off shot gun is to conceal it, there is no legal purpose for owning a sawed-off shotgun


That is your opinion, and it is not backed up by any fact, or law. according to the law there IS a reason to own one besides crime.

Quote:
Not the only difference! A sawed-off shotgun typically has a much shorter barrel than even the shortest legal shotgun


Dude, just stop. There is no "typically" about it. A sawed off shotgun IS a shortbarrelled shotgun.
Freeman15
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 12:50 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;47072 wrote:
I can assure you people DO NOT saw-off the end of a shotgun for "home defence", and yes handguns are concealable, but unlike sawed-off shotguns handguns may be used for self-defence and target practice.


What's the point of target practice? You achieve better and truer aim.

Why do you want better and truer aim? To more easily KILL a potential adversary.


Guns are designed to KILL, period. A deer rifle is made to kill game, a pistol is designed to kill people, but the purpose is to kill, and people need to stop side-stepping this point if we're going to have a serious discussion about firearms. Sport shooting is a refinement of a MARTIAL art, period.

Now, short-barrel shotguns. As a proud owner of a tactical shotgun (870p riot action loaded with alternating 00 Buck and hollow-point bear-slugs, complete with collapsing stock and shell rail), I can tell you that for its intended purpose, a shorter barrel is actually MORE practical than a longer one when dealing with a shotgun's INTENDED purpose......to end life. The shorter barrel promotes wider spread of shot (especially when loaded with birdshot or flechette (I don't own flechette, but I want some)) at equal range of another weapon with a longer barrel, thus increasing hit-probability. At close-range for home-protection, my 9mm Ruger P90 is in a night-stand as an "oh ****" weapon, but if ever I am able, I grab the shotgun, it's more lethal. 9 .32cal pellets at a time, or 1 9mm round at time, you do the math.

ALL firearms are useful in certain situations, and so ALL should be legal.
Drakej
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 01:11 pm
@Freeman15,
Also a shotgun is preferred in home defense, the chance of over penetration is lower then with a handgun and you also have a much greater chance of hitting a vital organ with a shotgun with fewer shots fired.

I think the big point that a lot of people get hung up on is the fact that they do not see a use for certain firearms. SBS's, .50 cal rifles, 600 nitros things like that. But as a mater of fact they all have your uses, much like someone owning multiple cars.
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 01:45 pm
@Drakej,
Drakej;47143 wrote:
Also a shotgun is preferred in home defense, the chance of over penetration is lower then with a handgun and you also have a much greater chance of hitting a vital organ with a shotgun with fewer shots fired.

I think the big point that a lot of people get hung up on is the fact that they do not see a use for certain firearms. SBS's, .50 cal rifles, 600 nitros things like that. But as a mater of fact they all have your uses, much like someone owning multiple cars.


Indeed....when the day arrives when American patriots must fight The Dreaded Communist Police State, they will need hi-tech armaments.:devilheadbang:
0 Replies
 
Sabz5150
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 03:10 pm
@Pinochet73,
Pinochet73;47062 wrote:
Nah.....I only care about ending Communism, Islamo-Fascism and heathenism. That's it, ya dig?:afro:Laughing:afro:Laughing:afro:Laughing:afro:


So, plain 'ol fascism is cool, right?

Cool. Turn in your guns.
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 03:13 pm
@Sabz5150,
Sabz5150;47161 wrote:
So, plain 'ol fascism is cool, right?

Cool. Turn in your guns.


Pino doesn't want to accept that the 2A protects the other amendments for EVERYBODY, not just the Christian Reich.
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 05:40 pm
@Sabz5150,
Sabz5150;47161 wrote:
So, plain 'ol fascism is cool, right?

Cool. Turn in your guns.



I didn't say that.:cussing:
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 05:42 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;47163 wrote:
Pino doesn't want to accept that the 2A protects the other amendments for EVERYBODY, not just the Christian Reich.


As Chuck said, the Second Amendment is the ultimate freedom.:thumbup:
0 Replies
 
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 06:28 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;47103 wrote:
Ever been in the situation? Damaging your drapes is the last thing on your mind when confronted with an armed threat in your home. There is nothing more, or less manuverable between a SBS and a handgun if one is proficient with either. A point and click shotty can make the difference between living and dying, not having to aim is a good thing in high stress situations. You lose things like fine motor skills, and something as simple as flipping off the safety can be a death sentence.


a handgun is just as effective if not more effective in stopping a home invader

Quote:

That is your opinion, and it is not backed up by any fact, or law. according to the law there IS a reason to own one besides crime.


law? sawed-off shotguns are illegal, so it is backed by law, and if you want to talk about statistics show me a percentage of home invaders that were stopped with a sawed-off shotgun (NOT just short-barreled shotguns)

Quote:

Dude, just stop. There is no "typically" about it. A sawed off shotgun IS a shortbarrelled shotgun.


There is a huge difference, all sawed-off shotguns are short-barreled shot guns but not all shortbarreled shotguns are sawed-off shotguns....understand?
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 06:39 pm
@Freeman15,
Freeman15;47104 wrote:
What's the point of target practice? You achieve better and truer aim.



many people target practice just because they like to target practice, and sawing off the end of a shotgun will not aid you in aim!

Quote:

Why do you want better and truer aim? To more easily KILL a potential adversary.


you don't need good aim to shoot someone in-front of you!

Quote:

Guns are designed to KILL, period. A deer rifle is made to kill game, a pistol is designed to kill people, but the purpose is to kill, and people need to stop side-stepping this point if we're going to have a serious discussion about firearms. Sport shooting is a refinement of a MARTIAL art, period.


yes but shooting deer isn't illegal.

Quote:

Now, short-barrel shotguns...


I understand where you are comming from but for the last time i'm ONLY talking about sawed-off shotguns (weapons that are illegally altered to aid in commiting a crime)

Quote:

ALL firearms are useful in certain situations, and so ALL should be legal.


Weapons thats sole purpose is to commit crime should be illegal. Can we at least agree on this much?
Drakej
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 08:49 pm
@Freeman15,
When you acknowledge that a SBS is a Sawed off shotgun how can you ask to have them banned? I see what you are saying but if you ban something just because it is used in a commitment of a crime we just got rid of about every thing all around us, including your computer. You are a hacker just because you own a computer. We cannot follow that kind of logic.

Edit:

Also a shotgun is pretty much the best home defense weapon you can own. The spread of the shot insures vital hits and it is not travel over 2k fps like a handgun round that will pass through the bad guy, and the wall behind him.
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 08:53 pm
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;47180 wrote:
a handgun is just as effective if not more effective in stopping a home invader


No, it isn't. If you can shoot, it can be just as effective, but in a very low light situation, where you have just woken up and are faced with an intruder a shotgun is going to give you a better chance of hitting the target due to the scatter of the pellets increasing the area of impact. Also a shotgun is going to have less penetration through walls, so if is safer to use in a house, or apartment. Why do you think people use shotguns to hunt birds? Go out and try to hit a bird flying off with a 9mm.


Quote:
law? sawed-off shotguns are illegal, so it is backed by law, and if you want to talk about statistics show me a percentage of home invaders that were stopped with a sawed-off shotgun (NOT just short-barreled shotguns)


Seriously, are you high or something? A sawed off shot gun is a shortbarrelled shotgun, it doesn't matter if a manufacturer cut it shorter on the lathe, or some hick cut it with a hacksaw. They are completely legal if you fill out a Form 1 and pay the $200 tax, if you do not, the firearm isn't illegal, YOU are in violation by having it period, end of story. Please don't make me start thinking you are stupid.


Quote:
There is a huge difference, all sawed-off shotguns are short-barreled shot guns but not all shortbarreled shotguns are sawed-off shotguns....understand?


I knew that long before this website existed, and?
0 Replies
 
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2007 09:01 pm
@Freeman15,
Just because I am sick of the uneducated BS, here is the excert from the NFA Handbook. This Handbook defines the various firearms, and what it takes for them to be considered a NFA firearm. Here is the part about shotguns...

CHAPTER 2. WHAT ARE “FIREARMS” UNDER THE
NFA?

Section 2.1 Types of NFA firearms

The NFA defines the specific types of firearms subject to the provisions of the Act.
These definitions describe the function, design, configuration and/or dimensions that
weapons must have to be NFA firearms. In addition to describing the weapon, some
definitions (machinegun, rifle, shotgun, any other weapon) state that the firearm
described also includes a weapon that can be readily restored to fire. A firearm that can
be readily restored to fire is a firearm that in its present condition is incapable of
expelling a projectile by the action of an explosive (or, in the case of a machinegun, will
not in its present condition shoot automatically) but which can be restored to a functional
condition by the replacement of missing or defective component parts. Please be aware
that case law is not specific but courts have held that the “readily restorable” test is
satisfied where a firearm can be made capable of renewed automatic operation, even if it
requires some degree of skill and the use of tools and parts.

2.1.1 Shotgun. A shotgun is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and
designed to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a
smooth bore either a number of projectiles or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.

A shotgun subject to the NFA has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in
length.


The length of the vast majority of shotgun barrels is measured from the muzzle of the
barrel to the face of the breech on a line parallel to the axis of the bore. In the case of a shotgun having a chamber(s) not an integral part of the barrel, such as a revolving
shotgun, the barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the front of the separate
cylinder and does not include the chamber. NOTE: Any muzzle attachment such as a
compensator, choke device, muzzle break, etc., is not included in the barrel length
measurement unless the attachment is permanently affixed to the barrel. Acceptable
methods for permanently attaching a device to a shotgun barrel are deep penetrating, full fusion, gas or electric steel seam welds or high temperature silver solder.


2.1.2 Weapon made from a shotgun. A weapon made from a shotgun is a shotgun type weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.

The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the
rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore.


If you noticed, the words "sawed off" do not appear, because they do not care about it. It is a slang term, and not a technical description therefore it has nothing to do with the law.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » Gun Control
  3. » Page 2
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 11/14/2024 at 11:25:49