He's saying that the logic behind "if you don't like abortion, don't have one," is flawed because it can be said of murder, theft, etc. To not enforce laws based on murder based on the premise "if you don't like murder, don't kill anyone" is anarchy.
That is where most opinions on the matter of abortion diverge. Murder is not a victimless crime. Abortion, depending on how you believe, is, or is not. Some take a scientific approach to whether it is, or not, some take a moral approach. Some do not believe that an unborn child is a conscience being yet, some believe it's right to life stats at inception, some believe it is ultimately the mothers choice, others feel they want to make choices for the mother.
Some take a scientific approach to whether it is, or not, some take a moral approach.
Many take both. It is verifiable that the child can feel pain, is recognizable in facial features, etc, all by 12 weeks. The mother has no choice to murder. There is a victim.
A fetus is a living being, right? Abortion is killing it, right? Seems like there is a victim to me.
I am opposed to abortions and for the following reasons:
Even if someone believes that abortions are acceptable, then at least consider this:
Most of abortion methods are cruel, extremely inhumane and painful, very painful for the fetus/baby.
If you intend to kill the fetus, then do so in a humane way...... If the equivalent methods to abortion were used to kill animals at the dog pond, the ASPCA and other animal groups...well, you get the idea.
The dangers associated with abortions are not explained clearly (most people believe that abortions are completely safe). There are many dangers physically and psychologically (infection, infertility, bleeding, depression and suicide, just to name a few).
Abortions go against my belief in liberty and justice.
Liberty to choose for one's self requires that as free individuals, we are responsible for our actions and the consequences thereof.
Justice is when you get what you deserve.
A woman should have the right to do with her own body what she wishes, but when she does what she wants to do, and as a result becomes pregnant, she has done what she wanted to do with her own body. How ever when she goes for an abortion, she is doing something to someone else's body.
What has the unborn done to deserve death? NOTHING!
It is not at fault for any thing including it's on existence, and yet it is expected to pay with it's life, no trial, no jury, and no say in what happens to them.
Every one knows that sex will result in a pregnancy, so sexually active people (and every one else) should be responsible for their own actions unless they are not free. Freedom carries with it a requirement that you must accept responsibility for your own actions.
Pro-abortionists say: " If you don't like abortions then don't have one". My response to them is: That is a great logical process, You just changed my mind, I think I'll apply that to the rest of my philosophy and change my opinions about every thing else too......
" If you don't like slavery then don't enslave anyone".
" If you don't like rape then don't rape anyone".
" If you don't like murder then don't murder anyone".
" If you don't like theft then don't steal from anyone".
" If you don't like lies then don't lie to anyone".
" If you don't like sexually transmitted diseases then don't transmit one".
" If you don't like terrorist then don't bomb anyone".
" If you don't like animal cruelty then don't be cruel to one".
" If you don't like oppression then don't oppress anyone".
" If you don't like arson then don't burn the property of anyone".
As you can see this type of thinking is anarchy, at it's worst. Basically it says: shut up and let me do what I want, I don't care how it affects anyone else, I just want to do what I want to do. It is very self centered and childish
A fetus is a living being, right? Abortion is killing it, right? Seems like there is a victim to me.
thats why im pro-choice
Have you ever been faced with such a decision?
Arterion,
You are what's wrong with society, You will put so much thought into disecting an issue with the intent of relieving anyone from the responsibility of their actions. Why is it that we work hard to avoid responsibility?
It really is as simple as that. People should take responsibility for their actions. You paint a picture with such broad strokes that if we were to make moral decisions based upon your logic, then nothing would be "wrong" in just about any situation.
But life is not that simplistic.
You stated:
"Ouch. And you don't think giving birth is the same for the mother?"
How did your logic become so convoluted? Do you make all of your decisions in life with the same corrolations?
A mother gives birth with the intention of bringing a life into this world, not taking one out. It is an ordeal for the woman that can have life threatening complications. But it is a miracle that in no way can be compared to the abortion process. To do so only expresses a lack of understanding on your part about what is like to bring a life into this world.
"No one is sure that a fetus feels pain, or suffers during an abortion. Even if it is traumatic, I'm sure it's no more traumatic and painful than the process of actually being born. (Which, admit it, it's gotta suck for the baby.)"
Ok well that pretty much proves your ignorance on this particular subject. A baby has extremely soft tissue and bones. If you have ever dealt with babies you would know that they are extremely flexible and physically compliant. The birth process is necessary to help remove fluids from the body, that while necessary in uttero, are not needed after birth. To say that the baby feels the same pain when in the birth canal as it does when it is eviscerated and pulled out with a hooks and vacuums is beyond ignorance.
"Again, there are also many dangers to pregnancy."
Aside form this becoming a biology lesson and your igmorance on that particular subject, I would say that going through pregnancy is all about taking responsibility for your actions, and abortion is the opposite. Taking on the risks of pregnancy in order to bring a life into this world, most would argue is more then worth it. Just ask any woman that cannot have children.
"And where's the justice to a child who is born to parents who either cannot afford to support it, or didn't want it? And where is the justice to a child who grows up jumping from foster home to foster home? You're saying he's getting what he deserves?"
Abortions go against my belief in liberty and justice. Allow me to explain another way. In order for there to be liberty and justice in society, people need to take responsibliity for ther actions. If a child is to expensive or cannot be supported or the parents didn't want it then they should take responsibility and do their best to use appropiate protection. Most forms of birth control are free at many clinics. Abortion is an excuse for people to do as they please and have a way out of the consequences. (there are exceptions to every situation, Rape and incest victims that require abortions are always the exception in these cases for obvious reasons. There also abortions that are needed for life threatening situations that would qualify as exceptions.)
"And likewise, what has it done to deserve life? It's not even a person yet. It's a ball of cells. Human, yes, but so are the countless spermatozoa you no doubt shoot off every night. Is it murder for those poor bits of human life to be murdered? All right, those aren't viable human life. But neither is a baby without external support -- either from the mother or artificially. But we could probably keep the results of last night's fun time alive, too, if we wanted to artificially support them. Neither are sentient. Both have the capacity to become a human. How can we justify treating the two differently?"
This is the crux of the arguement. When does life begin? Individual eggs and sperm cannot become life with out the other so part of your crude statement does not apply. The answer will be endlessly debated.
"You would rather the mother have to pay for its life for about twenty years? How is that fair, if she cannot afford it? And what if she has other children who are forced to do without so she can support the new baby? It's just not fair to the already-born children."
One word...RESPONSIBILITY.
"Having an abortion is a way of taking responsibility for your actions. You got pregnant. You know you're in no position to support a child, and don't want to see it go through the trauma of foster care, so you take responsibility by making sure it's never born, so that it never HAS to suffer."
I argue that it is a way to dodge the responsibility that the person should have taken before the pregnancy occured. Why is it that people of the past generations (before the advent of modern medicine) understood the responsiblilty of their actions so much better. They understood that sex had potential consequences so they exercised responsibility. Why should today's society be any different?
"All of those things you mentioned above infringe upon the freedom of another person against their will. A fetus doesn't have the cognizance to protest an abortion, nor do we even know if it would, given full knowledge of what human life will be like."
So your arguement is basically, what it doesn't know won't hurt him, right?
And since we cannot ask it must be ok? Once life begins for another Human being, no matter what stage of life it is, who are we to terminate it? Does your mother have the right to terminate you now? Why should there be any difference if you are an adult or a fetus? Human Life is precious no matter what stage it is in. That is the responsibility that freedom demands of us.
Arterion,
so i guess a woman who gets pregnant from a man who has rapped her has a responsibility to get married to that man and take care of the child that was brought on by a crime? even if she didn't choose to have sex with that man. wow you are brilliant. Yes now i think abortions should be completely and totaly illegal. thank you for clearing my freaking head. Here is a good diffrence between murder and abortion. a fetus may be alive in the womb (still doesn't make it human yet, regardless) if you were to steal my girlfriend and i killed you, i would have an intent of harm upon you. If i knocked a girl up and we had an abortion our motive is not anger or jealousy with the intent to harm. maybe we don't want our child to grow up going from foster parent to foster parent or to be melested by foster parents or maybe we don't have the financial, physical, or mental ability to parent a child. Maybe we have aids and instead of having the kid and forcing it to live a life of pain we decide to stop the pain before it ever stops. like we need any more people with aids in this country/world. whatever the reason the intent of the so called murder makes a diffrence. just like if you were shooting a nail gun at cans and shot someone in the head and killed them, it is not the same as walking up to someone with the intent of killing them. you wouldn't do as much time anyways. that is why there are diffrent degrees and sub-definitions to the word murder. ex: murder in the 1st, muder in the 2nd, negligent muder.....so on and so forth. The keyword for the day is intent. in wars we murder, wether it is to defend you country or not, it is still murder and yet not many people apose war all together. war is neccesary at times.
(still doesn't make it human yet, regardless)
If i knocked a girl up and we had an abortion our motive is not anger or jealousy with the intent to harm.
maybe we don't want our child to grow up going from foster parent to foster parent or to be melested by foster parents or maybe we don't have the financial,
Maybe we have aids and instead of having the kid and forcing it to live a life of pain we decide to stop the pain before it ever stops. like we need any more people with aids in this country/world. whatever the reason the intent of the so called murder makes a diffrence.
The keyword for the day is intent.
in wars we murder,
Morality aside, your rights end where mine begin and vice versa. It may be my body, but the person inside me has the right to live. It is a life, and it is a person. I can't give birth to a tomato or a chair. Beyond that, if I attack a pregnant woman, and she lives, but the baby dies, I can go to prison. If a pregnant woman chooses to smoke or do drugs, she can get in serious trouble for endangering a child. Where's the logic?
And what about the health issues for the woman herself? Abortion is an intrusive surgery in a very delicate area. As far as I know, it's the only kind of surgery that the doctor doesn't have to tell you about the possible risks. :eek:
You know, in my opinion, doing what amounts to chaining a woman to a wall and forcing her to let a baby grow inside of her is a violent, evil act.
Not saying that abortion is not evil.
But, I'm sorry, but if you have to choose between evil towards a fully formed, conscious, human person and evil towards a potential human, in the form of a cluster of cells that are about as conscious as my hand, I'd say the fully formed, conscious human person trumps the fetus.
Third trimester, I'm not for it, of course. Second trimester, ehh... iffy. First trimester, yeah. I'm for it to be legal. Legal. Not that it's moral or should be considered a wonderful thing, it's not. It IS an evil act. But the evil against the adult human woman is greater.
Because by banning abortion, you figuratively chain that woman to a wall and force her to let a baby grow inside of her that she doesn't want. It sickens me.
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Actually, we don't enforce murder laws for moral reasons. We enforce murder laws for the sake of order and for matters of self-preservation. Because we don't want to be killed, we punish those who do. Social contract, and whatnot.
At what point was it not human?The out come doesn't change, just your reason for justification. If you knocked up a girl what was your originall intension? Was it not to concieve a child? Why would a reasonable person want the other when the original intent is to conceive?Shouldn't you of thought of this before you got your peter wet? The child is an after thought to this mentallity, after you've got what you wanted. Not to responcible of you is it? Show a certain immaturity to think responcibly as an afterthought don't you think?So what of your intent to use sex to conceive a child? Why do you skip right by that and start complaining after the fact?What is the intent for having sex? Procreation would be the first scientific answer.Nope, in was we kill. They are allowed to arm themselves and are not defenceless. Can you say the same for a fetus?
save me the christian answer for everything. when i have sex it's not to procreate. when i got my wife pregnant it was not intentional. i was having sex for the very short lived experiance that ended the sex. otherwise known as an orgasm. Of course the christian way of looking at this is only have sex to spread the seed, but that is a very small outlook and is most of the time looked over by the very people who believe in it. The funny thing is if what you say is correct, then after we have the children we want then we should never have sex again. hahahah yeah right. And if having a surgery to stop a birth is so wrong then we should outlaw getting tubes tied and the little insision a man can get to stop birth. in theory it is doing the same thing. the baby is not born yet in either examples.
save me the christian answer for everything. when i have sex it's not to procreate.
when i got my wife pregnant it was not intentional.
i was having sex for the very short lived experiance that ended the sex. otherwise known as an orgasm.
Of course the christian way of looking at this is only have sex to spread the seed, but that is a very small outlook and is most of the time looked over by the very people who believe in it.
The funny thing is if what you say is correct, then after we have the children we want then we should never have sex again.
hahahah yeah right.
And if having a surgery to stop a birth is so wrong then we should outlaw getting tubes tied and the little insision a man can get to stop birth.
in theory it is doing the same thing. the baby is not born yet in either examples.
