23
   

Are You Fed Up Of Us Philiforum Refugees Yet?

 
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 11:01 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

manored wrote:

mark noble wrote:

Hi Manored!

I shall unextend pleasant gestures to anyone whoso chooses.

Do you so choose?

Kind regards!
mark...
No! adding "except Manored" to all your wishes would just make then longer! =)


Hi Manored!

It would read (exept dlowan and Manored (chosen excludees)) actually.

Kind regards!
Mark...
Just use your signature! =)
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 11:05 am
@manored,
Hi Manored!

Read the thread on my gestures, and you will see why I will not do this.

Just so you know - When I extend my gestures universally - They will now read (except Dlowan and Electronic Mail (chosen excludees)).

I am not being awkward - Read the corresponding thread I posted yesterday, and you will see why.

Do you wish to be excluded?

Mark...
Reyn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 01:32 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:
...Do you wish to be excluded?

Mark...

Yes.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 01:38 pm
@Reyn,
if he's making a list, I might as well sign up.

unless I do something really special, of course...
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 03:43 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
The Philforum Disconnect: Justin couldn't run the PhilForum any more; he had to sell. We knew it, we saw it coming but were told it would be sold. I think for most of us, the worst we figured would happen would be the appearance of some ads. I seriously doubt anyone thought a complete changeover to another (completely different) forum was going to be the result. This likely spawned some soured feelings and that's likely the biggest source of any mirth y'all are seeing (just my guess).


I agree with this (that surprise is a major factor in the angst). We avoided announcing that the forum would merge with a2k too early because people would come and register (and I'm still not done fixing all the duplicate issues) but the plan was for us to have started working on the transition the week after it actually occurred. We were going to start working on the features we are working on now to better prepare the merger and start explaining the plan on philforum. It was supposed to happen about a month later with a month spent on development and integration and I think things would have gone a lot more smoothly.

The merger was always the plan, ever since I purchased philforum. The bottom line is that philosophy is not a profitable subject and ads could not have supported philforum (I bet the ads that were running, that I removed, were making under $10 a month). However at the scale of a2k they fit in just fine and we can afford it.

In other news, the owner of another philosophy forum (a small one) contacted me again today about selling it, so we may have another one join us.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 03:47 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
In other news, the owner of another philosophy forum (a small one) contacted me again today about selling it, so we may have another one join us.

If you do, when you important their names, can you put "Double Phil" before any duplicate names?

A great taste, less philling.
R
T
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 09:28 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:

Interesting thread, a few comments if I may.

Moving On: I think many of the regular posters have moved on, though a good number have stayed. As someone mentioned before, its to be expected.

The Philforum Disconnect: Justin couldn't run the PhilForum any more; he had to sell. We knew it, we saw it coming but were told it would be sold. I think for most of us, the worst we figured would happen would be the appearance of some ads. I seriously doubt anyone thought a complete changeover to another (completely different) forum was going to be the result. This likely spawned some soured feelings and that's likely the biggest source of any mirth y'all are seeing (just my guess).

Destroyer?: Robert's not to blame; he bought something that was offered (the only alternative is that NO ONE would have bought our messages and user records). Obviously a lot of time and effort's put into A2K. But as he's already admitted, attrition is an inevitable part of such transactions. But because there's no other "face" to put on the dissatisfaction some feel and can't let go, he'll unfortunately catch it. I think that those who've thought it through don't really bear ill will.

My Take: I personally still don't feel at home; the reason being, this kind of set up simply isn't one I would have joined had my user record and posts not been brought here. Don't get me wrong, this is a fine place with some outstanding folks! But whether or not I move my philosophy interests elsewhere, I think I'll be happy to remain a member and chime in here and there. Also, familiar faces like Salima, Mark, Jeeprs, Fido, Gosh and more all remain welcome sights I'd rather not lose.

But a HUGE thanks to all who've taken a lot of effort to help make this merger work and welcomed us in. Several of you have an obvious stake in keeping your A2K home hospitable and cordial - it's not gone unnoticed.

Thanks again


as far as the destruction is concerned, i would add this:
half the blame belongs to justin in my opinion. If he was tired of the forum and could not afford it why did he not just walk away from it and say 'good riddance'? Did he have a debt of 5000 $ which he was unable to repay that he had to sell it to save himself from going to debtors' prison? If we had known it would be obliterated we would have done something to stop it, but we were only told it was sold and under new management. Even if he had just walked away, the archives would still be there cached-as it is now the history is scattered and impossible to locate.

I once belonged to a forum that was abandoned by the admin and it may still be out there for all I know-years later I was contacted about some posts I had made. I dont see why it was necessary to do this, especially in such a way that no one had any opportunity to protest or offer an alternative.

Hey, what's done is done.

it was not the fault of the members of a2k, and they have no reason to be any more happy about it than anyone from the other forums they have consumed. this was not anyone's choice but justin and robert.
Robert Gentel
 
  7  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 09:49 pm
@salima,
salima wrote:
half the blame belongs to justin in my opinion. If he was tired of the forum and could not afford it why did he not just walk away from it and say 'good riddance'? Did he have a debt of 5000 $ which he was unable to repay that he had to sell it to save himself from going to debtors' prison?


I won't speak for Justin, but I find this comment highly untoward based on what I do know of him. Not that it's any of our business what debts he may have had, but he had made it clear that he was undergoing significant financial difficulty of his own and "blaming" him for not footing the bill for keeping a forum the way you want is selfish.

salima wrote:
Even if he had just walked away, the archives would still be there cached-as it is now the history is scattered and impossible to locate.


Untrue, the pages would have all disappeared from the internet permanently if he just walked away. Unless, of course, you meant walking away while still paying the bills, in which case it would remind me of the old saying "nothing is as easy as for the man who doesn't have to do it himself." A lot of people are much quicker to recommend that someone else spend money on keeping forums the way they want than they are to spend the money themselves. I find it untoward to think you have any say in what Justin spends his money on just because you happened to register on a forum he owned.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 10:20 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
I find it untoward to think you have any say in what Justin spends his money on just because you happened to register on a forum he owned.
Does a domain owner have a fiduciary responsibility to the members of the community that forms around it?
Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Reply Thu 1 Jul, 2010 10:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
Not to spend their personal money on user whims. Just because you register on a site doesn't mean the owners owe you money. Justin was under no obligation to pay the bills for the forum, and he made a responsible transition that kept the content alive, fulfilling his social contract with his users better than some internet giants do (like Yahoo, whose millions of geocities pages, and part of internet history, went offline this year when they closed that service).

Just walking away while forever paying the bills is simply not a reasonable demand to "blame" Justin for not having done. The internet is part of the real world, these things have costs. Nobody likes when their favorite restaurant closes either, but they don't "blame" the owners for not bleeding money on it forever if it's not working out. Online people often forget that these pages are not magic and are costing somebody something.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 02:11 am
@salima,
Quote:
it was not the fault of the members of a2k, and they have no reason to be any more happy about it than anyone from the other forums they have consumed.


Oh, I don't know. Lots of people are on forums like this because they really like the interaction with all sorts of people.

I doubt many A2kers were less than happy with the merger...except those who always complain about any change.

Some have been upset by the level of distress and such expressed by some of the Phil Forum folk, or a bit annoyed at times by some of the merging effects...but overall I think you're projecting your grief and aggrievedness onto the general A2k membership.
salima
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 02:59 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

salima wrote:
half the blame belongs to justin in my opinion. If he was tired of the forum and could not afford it why did he not just walk away from it and say 'good riddance'?


I won't speak for Justin, but I find this comment highly untoward based on what I do know of him. Not that it's any of our business what debts he may have had, but he had made it clear that he was undergoing significant financial difficulty of his own and "blaming" him for not footing the bill for keeping a forum the way you want is selfish.

salima wrote:
Even if he had just walked away, the archives would still be there cached-as it is now the history is scattered and impossible to locate.


Untrue, the pages would have all disappeared from the internet permanently if he just walked away. Unless, of course, you meant walking away while still paying the bills, in which case it would remind me of the old saying "nothing is as easy as for the man who doesn't have to do it himself." A lot of people are much quicker to recommend that someone else spend money on keeping forums the way they want than they are to spend the money themselves. I find it untoward to think you have any say in what Justin spends his money on just because you happened to register on a forum he owned.


the blame i am attaching to both you and justin is not on how you spend your money or what you buy and sell. both of you did nothing illegal. when i say blame i mean as being the cause for the result and consequences.. .specifically, the condition of the sum total members of the a2k forum (which if you are happy with, good for you) and the condition of the philosophyforum (meaning nonexistent).

when i say walk away i mean walk away, severing all attachments including paying bills. as to what happens when bills are no longer paid for a website, you may be right about that, i would expect your knowledge and experience to supersede mine-the one i was involved with was over a decade ago. but even then i am certain that when it was abandoned there was no one paying the bills...isnt it ridiculous to suppose that anyone would do that?

as i said what is done is done. there is no way to get it back now and i am only pointing out what other alternatives existed and what possible solutions might have emerged. i am not accusing anyone of anything, just unable to comprehend the reasoning behind their actions.

whatever it is you and justin hoped to accomplish, i hope you are both satisfied.

Pepijn Sweep
 
  5  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 03:00 am
@dlowan,
I personally like the merger. Most of my friends are on the a2k Forum, I learn a lot about North-American Culture before it's real history. I have the feeling I just got a lucky break. Oh, and the fact some moderator banned me from my Old Philosophy Forum for being too colourful and not making sense... Robert was so nice to let me in again. I do not think I'll always make sense, I do not intend to. I learn best having fun ! Mark, please put me of the list of Phliforum Refugees because I am not a refugee but an Exile who found a new habitat at a2k.
Very Happy
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 03:27 am
@salima,
salima wrote:
when i say walk away i mean walk away, severing all attachments including paying bills.


For most sites that means they go offline within the billing cycle (30 days for most sites). If Justin stopped paying the bills, the site and all its content would have gone offline.


Quote:
but even then i am certain that when it was abandoned there was no one paying the bills...isnt it ridiculous to suppose that anyone would do that?


Someone, somewhere, is paying for the costs of all websites.

Quote:
as i said what is done is done. there is no way to get it back now and i am only pointing out what other alternatives existed and what possible solutions might have emerged.


It's not an alternative if it's not true. You think just walking away and not paying the bills was an alternative that would have left philforum alive indefinitely but it would have meant the end of the forum including all the content in very short order.

Quote:
i am not accusing anyone of anything, just unable to comprehend the reasoning behind their actions.


You were blaming, not accusing. And for either I'd recommend being able to comprehend the reasoning.

Quote:
whatever it is you and justin hoped to accomplish, i hope you are both satisfied.


I can't speak for Justin but I certainly am. Able2know gained a lot of very interesting members (and some not-so-interesting ones, but all forums have those and without them interesting would have no meaning) and the angst is a vocal minority, the traffic from both sites is not declining, users are not leaving in droves (or if they are others are coming back in similar-sized droves). The numbers I am looking at are very positive, with average pages per visit and average time on site per visit growing significantly (25-40%). That means people are using the site more than before, and that means I'm getting something right. That makes me satisfied yes, it's nice to see hard work pay off with objective measurements of user satisfaction. And even if there are criticisms that paint an entirely different picture (someone said only 10% of the users have stayed? I don't have the exact number on me but I think that might be closer to the amount that left) I've been through this before, it goes away eventually and the site marches on and continues to grow, meaning we are doing something right.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 04:55 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Well, jolly good for you then!!
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  4  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 10:51 am
@salima,
salima wrote:

as far as the destruction is concerned, i would add this:
half the blame belongs to justin in my opinion. If he was tired of the forum and could not afford it why did he not just walk away from it and say 'good riddance'? Did he have a debt of 5000 $ which he was unable to repay that he had to sell it to save himself from going to debtors' prison? If we had known it would be obliterated we would have done something to stop it, but we were only told it was sold and under new management. Even if he had just walked away, the archives would still be there cached-as it is now the history is scattered and impossible to locate.
He did warn us before hand he was going to sell it, and he prioritizied member-buyers then selling it, but nobody in the forum was willing to buy.

mark noble wrote:

Hi Manored!

Read the thread on my gestures, and you will see why I will not do this.

Just so you know - When I extend my gestures universally - They will now read (except Dlowan and Electronic Mail (chosen excludees)).

I am not being awkward - Read the corresponding thread I posted yesterday, and you will see why.

Do you wish to be excluded?

Mark...
There is no point unless everyone else also are =)

mark noble
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 10:57 am
@manored,
I will post to you in this fashion, from now on.
melonkali
 
  2  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 03:24 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
How do you honestly feel about the merger?
This is the place to get it off your chest.


I don't really have much to "get off my chest", Mark.
I think most of us here approached the merger in pretty good faith & were a little taken aback about how "stand-offish" you philosophers appeared to be at the start. I mean, here were we, welcoming you like mad (!), inviting you to join in on our discussions, & the response from your members was to start a whole new bunch of what appeared to be "philosophers only" threads! Wink


Msolga,

As one of the "irregulars" from PF, I must confess, and most old PFers would agree, I am no philosopher. I enjoyed reading the posts, and occasionally tried to add my two cents when the subject seemed to be "philosophy light", and there were plenty enough "philosophy light" threads to keep me interested (Of course, I avoided subforums like "logic", "Kant", etc.)

I only hope I don't repeat my unintentional PF habit here at A2K: notorious thread killer.

rebecca
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 03:27 pm
@melonkali,
Hi Melon!

Well that's the end of this one then!

Kind regards!
Mark...
0 Replies
 
Tryagain
 
  3  
Reply Fri 2 Jul, 2010 04:12 pm
Greetings Noble Mark Anthony. Or as we say in Latin, Anthony Try salutem si vales, bene est.

Please excuse me for giving the following largely non-linguistic reply; but, what has 'YET' got to do with it?

Have a brilliant day Sir. Kind regards. Thank you, and have a terrific everything always, and may you enjoy intimacy with my girlfriends lesbian lover. YΩ
 

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